[CLOSED] New Docs Discussion: Should we recommend a platform?

(Kim Andersen) #101

Comeone Markus! At least give the users some credit. They´re not all that stupid. There is a specific reason why they´re even suppose to be reading the doc about an computer based Smart Home System. They have an interest even before they start to read the doc. Othweise they would never have come this far.

Lots of people are used to add USB devices and/or external storage to their workstation. Adding a SSD/external storage to Rpi is no different. Infact I would say, users beeing more used to USB/external storage devices rather than SD cards.
Second - It´s the exact same procedure the user will be doing, when copyíng the image to an SD card or an SSD. So no need to add extra explanation in how to.
The benefits are huge!
(The Rpi 3B+ will boot from external storage devices by default. Rpi 3B and older wont).

My question was a suggestion, a tip section for optimizing specially for the Rpi. It´s not something I´m going to argue about.

(Jerome Luckenbach) #102

I would prefer this phrasing. Reccommends Pi 3 but leaves the possibility for using an older one at hand.

(Skinah) #103

@Andrew_Rowe and @rlkoshak

How do these minor changes sit with you?

(Andrew Rowe) #104

No, Jerome, I was talking about several folks in this thread that considered other platforms a better choice, such as windows. I know nothing about Pi so can not comment on suitability at all.

(Markus Storm) #105

Be careful with your quotes, I never said that and never would.
We’re discussing the introductory documentation page here which is meant to address the maximum number of people with recommendations that all power users to contribute here (or at least a great majority of them) agrees with - both of which does not apply to your proposal.

(Rich Koshak) #106

And yet Markus and I have had extended threads dealing with users who insist that exactly this is just too hard on Linux and “openHABian MUST do something to make this easier to get new users.”

I agree with Markus. Instructions for dealing with an SSD do not belong here. Perhaps in the installation instructions but not in the intro.

We HAVE tries to give the users credit. In each and every case we get “yelled at” by said users for expecting too much from them.

Only true for RPi 3. Other RPis cannot boot from SSD.

Any tip sections for any platform needs to be in the installation page for that specific platform, not in the intro.

This isn’t strictly correct. Or at least it isn’t complete. There are many users running on FreeBSD, in FreeNAS Jails, and I think someone even managed to get it to run on Android TV. Such a definitive statement is incorrect. I prefer the original wording.

This reads awkwardly. The second part isn’t a full sentence.

I like the original wording better. Or something like

RPis have a limited amount of RAM (memory) which may cause performance problems for users with large OH configurations or when running related services like databases and data visualization on the same machine.

(Kim Andersen) #107

My suggestion was pointed to new users getting started as quick as possible. Not if they should use SSD/traditional HD drives , both of which are way faster than the extreem slow SD card, which is recommened!

It wont make any differences regarding that part. Those who want to use an external drive (boot), will have to go through these steps no matter in which docs it´s written or not written. And it would still be asked about through the community (forum) like usual.

But I´ll rest my case… It´s not worth it.

(Gad Ofir) #108

windows is cool mannn :grinning:

no really i am running for almost two years i think, and it’s not dead
and i have a backup Linux VM, waiting that I use for testing for now

as shiity as you think windows is , i am also surprised on how reliable is my system
i just upgraded to 2.4 and its running like crazy :slight_smile:

for noobs like me i strongly recommended starting with windows!

(Mick Ursell) #109

Can you explain why you are recommending a dedicated system in the long run?
I have a Windows 10 setup, that I use for various unrelated tasks and is powered 24/7.
I have not encountered a breaking issue caused by this setup (although still a basic remote control system at the moment, as I’m still building towards automation).
What would I gain switching to a dedicated system?

This open ended statement is the kind of thing that could put people off openHAB.
The part that really causes concern is

it may be easier to start with a dedicated system right away.

As it strongly suggests that at some point you have to spend more money on a new system.

(Markus Storm) #110

You are not representative. Others have.

Any SW and usage doesn’t have to but obviously may interfere with openHAB. Note that general statement is not specific to any HW or OS so it also applies to heavily resource limited HW such as SBCs.
Desktop computers usually don’t run 24x7, HA servers need to.

Nope, it puts them off starting using using desktop computers or to co-locate OH with other systems, which IS a less professional approach known to potentially cause a number of problems you cannot run into when using dedicated systems.

Either way, the primary recommendation (you omitted that in your quote) anyway is to use what you know and like to. And given the recommendation for a Pi to follow, money is not an argument against dedicated systems.

(Holgi) #111

Just an idea:

Instead of recommending one ore more plattforms, how about creating a kind of decision matrix and let user decide?

The key problem is: Every user has different expectations.

One just wants to try something out (which is a use case for installing it on a Windows PC), another one wants to have a 24/365 solution and might end up installing it on a Synolgy with redundant disks. The third one wants to save energy and ends up with a Pi or NUC.

There is no “ideal” platform for everyone, in my opinion.

(Vincent Regaud) #112

Exactly, that’s the point. That’s why the advice is to start on something you know. Then after you are familiar with the system you can move on with what you actually want.

(Holgi) #113

Yes, I also went through this process.

I started on a Synology actually, as it just “was there”.

But soon I realised that on the Synology, there are too many “differences” to a regular Linux distribution, and I am no Synology-Specialist. It took me days to get even the Z-Wave stick run on Synology.

So for the next step, I ordered a Pi and worked with the image, to have the same file locations as in tutorials. And Z-Wave stick worked without hazzle.

As my understanding now gets better and better, I actually plan to move to a NUC and Ubuntu for “productive” environment.

But the start should definetly on a plattform you know. It’s hard enough for a beginner to get into Openhab, for this reason one should not start on a new platform also, cause it actually “doubles” the work.

(Markus Storm) #114

Sigh. Would you please read the whole thread first.

The now latest version first and foremost recommends to use what you know and like.
Anyone’s free to choose whatever he wants, but there’s a huge drawback to this in terms of support.
We (developers and supporters) are experiencing this to be a main problem to vastly increase the number of questions this is producing and the amount of effort needed to put into answering, let alone the capability to answer if the problem is due to a specific HW/VM/OS/Java combination that the supporter does not know about.
That’s why there will be no recommendation on different use scenarios and this is also why you’re mostly on your own if you insist on choosing a non mainstream system.

And there’s a large number of people without a strong preference or insufficient knowledge, especially among OH newbies. They are unable to take that decision themselves. These are what the second recommendation (RPi) is for.

(Andrew Rowe) #115

OK everybody… the war is over… go home
New introduction section of documentation is merged. I want to thank the community for participating and also a big thank you to @lipp_markus for pushing this huge improvement thru to make the documentation more friendly for new users. Bravo!

(Vincent Regaud) closed #116