Even though I understand where you´re getting at, I must admit, I dont see howcome the forum shouldnt be used for bug reporting… Ofcouse if the developer isn´t available on the forum, then there is a chance he doesnt “listen”. But most often we do see the developers participating in here… How come its not valid to report bug in here as well then?
I can speak only for myself here: I don‘t read everything. But I look through the github issues from time to time, so chances are that I will see something there and overlook it here.
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I understand… And thats the chance the users are taking for reporting in here… It´s just that Kai very specific said, if it´s not reported on github, there is no bug.
Also mind you, filing an issue on github requires yet another registration… It´s not all users who are fund of makeing registrations everywhere…
First, many developers do not use this user forum.
Second, GitHub is the proper place for product development issues. We do not want to jeopardize the non-profit status of the Foundation that sponsors this forum.
My question was:
The answer was:
Good to know. Thanks.
For one, it’s an issue on the openhab-core repo, not the openhab-addons2 repo. It is important to see where an issue is to understand what it applies to. And if the issue is in the addons2 repo, it will usually start with the binding name in brackets (e.g. “[mqtt] Something doesn’t work with blah”).
It has been stated multiple times on the forum in many many threads. To get the attention of the developers/maintainers you must file an issue. If there is somewhere it would be appropriate to add that to the docs I’ll do it, even though I know no one will read it.
And I created How to file an Issue for people to link to when something that looks like a bug is discovered on the forum. For all the people helping on the forum and maintainers (I hope you all see this) please make a point of linking to that thread and asking users to file issues when a problem appears to be a bug.
The developers spend their time coding, not reading each and every posting. And not all of the developers participate on the forum. A forum thread has a very good chance of being missed. GitHub is where the full development workflow resides. The developers can ignore the issue, or decide not to code the fix or feature request, but they wont miss the report in the first place.
Because the issues on github are part of what drives the development, an issue must always be filed whether or not it’s also reported on the forum. As Kai said, if there is no issue, the bug doesn’t exist (or at least it doesn’t exist in the development workflow which is the only place where work occurs to actually fix the bug.
And who is the best person to file the issue? The person who is experiencing the problem in the first place. It does no good for me or someone else to create an issue for a problem that I’m not experiencing. I can’t answer questions from the developer. I can’t provide the steps necessary to reproduce the bug.
An open source project like openHAB is a community effort. It is not just the developers and maintainers who have a responsibility to the community. We all have a responsibility to the community. And part of that responsibility is filing issues on GitHub when you encounter a bug. If you are not willing to register on GitHub, I’m afraid that means you are not willing to live up to your responsibilities. As I discussed above, someone else can’t file the issue for you. So if you are not willing to do your part, it doesn’t seem fair to be upset when the developers don’t fix it.
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I know. But “event triggers” are caught by a rule and then normally something other should happen. How should I know, if it is related to the rule or to the addon?
When in doubt, if a problem exists only for one binding, file an issue on that binding. If it’s not specific to the binding, a developer will say so and close the issue, pointing to the “real” issue. If there isn’t a “real issue” you will be asked to recreate the issue in the right location.
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Come on Rich… With attitudes like that, we´re getting nowhere… The users are spending their time as well.
Developers as well as the users should both be interested in getting things done and issues fixed and use whatever tool there is to reach this goal. This is not a one-way democrasy.
I understand and I agree, Github is the prefered community to use for technical reasons… But going as far as saying, if a bug hasn´t been reported on Github, there is no bug, is simply too restricted and arrogant.
Precise!
Ahmm… So the above “We all have a responsibility to the community” is restricted to the users only! 
I have spend quite alot of time on this forum specially around issues on the Zigbee binding… Now you tell me it´s MY responsibility to spend even more time on github, just because the developer dont want to spend his time in the forum. (this is just an example, cause Chris do participate in the forum).
Like I just said - Attitudes like this is getting us nowhere, so please dont pull this down on the users only like that… Hold on to what you´ve just said above. It´s worth another quote:
That is the way development here works and has worked for some time.
Feel free to find something better or create your own product. Many of us have tried other inferior solutions.
hang on fellas… Chris is very aware of this issue. He has been busy with zigbee.
back off on Alex, I agree with him too. The overnight heal is a well know issue, the dimmer switches same
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I guess we getting nowhere then.
The tool is GitHub.
OK, if there is no issue on GitHub, the bug will never be fixed. Is that better?
Do not put words into my mouth. No. The topic of conversation is about filing issues and why reporting them on the forum is not sufficient. In that context, the users have a responsibility to report bugs to GitHub. We are not talking about everyone’s responsibilities. No one is saying or implying that the developers don’t have responsibilities too.
And it takes all of five minutes to file an issue.
Yes. If you find a bug and don’t report it on GitHub it is not fair to be upset when a bug you failed to report to GitHub is not fixed. You failed to do your part so you can’t be mad when the developers fail to do theirs. In all likelihood they don’t even know the problem exists.
I don’t care if you don’t want to take the time to report issues on GitHub. That’s your right. No one is going to delete your OH instances for failing to contribute. But it is very unfair to then get upset when the bugs you failed to report do not get fixed. That’s all I’m saying.
Like it or not, this is how open source development works in most projects I’ve ever been involved in. It’s pretty standard actually.
Report issues, don’t report issues. I don’t care. Just don’t expect them to be fixed if you don’t report them to GitHub where the right developers are guaranteed to see them.
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Why there is a need for this topic? You all have read it: If you have a bug then file it on Github, not here. If it is critical it is the decision of the maintainer or developer. ((Then you will get a “stable” but maybe faulty 2.5.0 release.)) Over and out.
EDIT: Only then it’s ensured that bug tracking takes place.
To declutter the Milestone Release announcement thread.
Oh, sorry. I thought it was there to point out critical issues before the 2.5.0 release.
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You don’t seriously mean to compare an average user’s efforts to that of a developer, do you ?
Developers do the work FOR OTHERS to benefit from it.
Now you are testifying Rich a wrong attitude when he just states developers don’t need to read every posting and expect issues to be filed on Github?
It’s nowhere near being arrogant, it’s to the point. It’s what Kai said, too. It’s fair. It’s how Open Source works. It’s why it is not ok to complain about any bug when you have not filed an issue (or identified one that has been filed already). Github is not the preferred but the only medium for right that purpose.
Yes of course! The developers contribute code. That’s more than you can expect.
And it’s clearly any developer’s right to define how you need to provide your feedback when you expect him to work for you.
That’s your task (if not to say duty) as a user, and it’s arrogant in fact to expect developers to go search the forum for bug reports. They don’t need to conduct a beta of their feature or actively play the support team role by retrieving bug reports in any other form. Remind you this is not a commercial project. BTW developers in fact sometimes file issues on their own, but most of the time they simply can’t because most issues only show up in a user’s setup so it’s users only that must test and document issues. Let alone that many user ‘reports’ are often just a beginning and require further analysis.
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Without users testing and reporting bugs or bringing in new ideas, this project would have been dead for a long time. In addition, many users voluntarily help other users here. You could say: a free helpdesk. That is e.g. my voluntary contribution. And in return I expect that my issues will be taken seriously and at least it will be tried to solve. Imagine nobody would help each other and that everyone who has a problem will open an issue on Github right away. Then no maintainer or developer would keep track. I agree to open an issue on Github for a bug, but then it should be done there in general and without any exception.
I hate to say it, but if your expectation is that every issue filled gets fixed you are destined for disappointment. Not every issue is reproducible or fixable. Often only a small minority of users ever see the problem and the developer cannot reproduce it. Even commercial software you actually pay for doesn’t promise that.
If filling an issue on GitHub is too much for you, then don’t do it. But the only way anything gets done on this project is if someone volunteers to do it. So by all means, file an issue and demand that it gets fixed. See how far that gets you…
Even commercial projects that you actually pay real money for have issues that take a long time or never get fixed.
openHAB advances because we all as a community do what we can to help it along. Not because some users feel entitled to demand and dictate how the volunteer developers spend their time.
At the risk of speaking for others, I suspect that most of the developers could care less if you or any one else continues to use OH or moves to some other project. They work on OH because they want to and they will continue to do so whether you continue to uwe OH or not. They work on the project for themselves and because they believe in it. Not because users demand it.
Users have absolutely no leverage here. They are benefiting from the generosity of the developers. If you want something done, you either need to do it yourself or you need to go out of your way to make it as easy as possible for one of the volunteer developers to do it. But there are no guarantees even then.
If you want guarantees, hire a personal developer and tell them what to code. Of you use a pure open source project, be grateful for anything that gets built because the only reason it exists is because of the generosity of the developers. You may feel entitled, but in fact you are entitled to nothing.,
That doesn’t mean the developers are not trying their best with the time they have available. I know they do. And none of them want to have OH broken. But there are more issues open than can ever be worked off. More bugs and feature requests then can ever be implemented. So they will choose to work on what they think is most important, and that may differ from your priorities. But like I said before, as a mere user, you have no leverage. You can’t make them spend time on your problem if they think other problems are more worth their time.
If you can’t abide that, no open source project is for you. Go pay someone to code something to your exact specifications because not even a commercial project will meet your expectations.
Otherwise, be grateful for what the developers do and do your best to make their job easier and hope that what you need done makes the cut. Or become a developer yourself and work on what is important to you.
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I think everything is said now.
It does not surprise me that a developer does not read such things.
Please return to the topic, so that we have a stable version 2.5 at Christmas
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I second every effort users ARE doing for bug reporting, which should be welcome from a developer side no matter which enviroment its coming from.
Its his statement about the users are not living up to their responsibilties, if they dont want to register a Github account, to do bug reporting!
Its how this project (part of it) have chosen to work with it, while ignoring other oppotunities, such as the forum.
Try replace “complain” with the word “reporting”… Perhaps you´ll better understand where I´m getting at…
Side note:
You always seem to be rather focused on users are just here to complaint all the time… Perhaps its time for your to understand, users are here to report bugs and issues, because they care about the project! And anyone who do care about the project should accept and be pleased with this kind of effort as well as those who choose to use Github.
He can define whatever he want. He can even demand the users to meet him personally on his doorstep, if thats what he want. Thats his decision. Question is, is it effective? (no need to answer).
Arrogant?? The only one beeing arrogant is the one who refuses to meet the other on their playground. Thats arrogant. And this goes for users as well as developers.
I never said anything about developers have to spend time searching themselves… There are ways to make it more effective, such as using tagging. If they (both) care, I´m sure they will figure this out.
It´s all about willingness both ways!!
It´s the same! You risc the chane the a user dont want to spend the extra time filing this issue at all.
My point is, if one part refuses to work in the other parts enviroment, this can/will become a huge problem, unless they both meet eachother on both enviroments.
You simply cant demand one of them, without demanding both parts. Doing so, thats beeing arrogant!
Both you, and Marcus always seem to care about the time and effort the developers are spending. And you simply forget (or you ignore), the users time spending and effort. You shouldnt!
It is not sufficient, because “someone” have chosen it not to be. Not because thats the way it has to be.
Well, I must have missed that part then… Perhaps you can show me where I misssed it?
Which I agree should be an effort a user, who care, should invest. Just as well as I think a bug report on the forum is an effort I think a developer should invest, if he care.
Ofcouse, its´not fair to complaint and beeing upset if you havn´t done any effort to report it. This is not really worth discussing.
But this is actually not about complaints. It´s s try to look at it from both ways, insted of just focusing one way. As written above to Marcus, it´s a question of willingness, both ways!
We´re all spending lots of time, not just the developers!
Minimizing this time spending is a question of using the most effective ways, which in my opinion is both parts meeting eachother in their respective enviroments.