Why there is a need for this topic? You all have read it: If you have a bug then file it on Github, not here. If it is critical it is the decision of the maintainer or developer. ((Then you will get a “stable” but maybe faulty 2.5.0 release.)) Over and out.
EDIT: Only then it’s ensured that bug tracking takes place.
To declutter the Milestone Release announcement thread.
Oh, sorry. I thought it was there to point out critical issues before the 2.5.0 release.
You don’t seriously mean to compare an average user’s efforts to that of a developer, do you ?
Developers do the work FOR OTHERS to benefit from it.
Now you are testifying Rich a wrong attitude when he just states developers don’t need to read every posting and expect issues to be filed on Github?
It’s nowhere near being arrogant, it’s to the point. It’s what Kai said, too. It’s fair. It’s how Open Source works. It’s why it is not ok to complain about any bug when you have not filed an issue (or identified one that has been filed already). Github is not the preferred but the only medium for right that purpose.
Yes of course! The developers contribute code. That’s more than you can expect.
And it’s clearly any developer’s right to define how you need to provide your feedback when you expect him to work for you.
That’s your task (if not to say duty) as a user, and it’s arrogant in fact to expect developers to go search the forum for bug reports. They don’t need to conduct a beta of their feature or actively play the support team role by retrieving bug reports in any other form. Remind you this is not a commercial project. BTW developers in fact sometimes file issues on their own, but most of the time they simply can’t because most issues only show up in a user’s setup so it’s users only that must test and document issues. Let alone that many user ‘reports’ are often just a beginning and require further analysis.
Without users testing and reporting bugs or bringing in new ideas, this project would have been dead for a long time. In addition, many users voluntarily help other users here. You could say: a free helpdesk. That is e.g. my voluntary contribution. And in return I expect that my issues will be taken seriously and at least it will be tried to solve. Imagine nobody would help each other and that everyone who has a problem will open an issue on Github right away. Then no maintainer or developer would keep track. I agree to open an issue on Github for a bug, but then it should be done there in general and without any exception.
I hate to say it, but if your expectation is that every issue filled gets fixed you are destined for disappointment. Not every issue is reproducible or fixable. Often only a small minority of users ever see the problem and the developer cannot reproduce it. Even commercial software you actually pay for doesn’t promise that.
If filling an issue on GitHub is too much for you, then don’t do it. But the only way anything gets done on this project is if someone volunteers to do it. So by all means, file an issue and demand that it gets fixed. See how far that gets you…
Even commercial projects that you actually pay real money for have issues that take a long time or never get fixed.
openHAB advances because we all as a community do what we can to help it along. Not because some users feel entitled to demand and dictate how the volunteer developers spend their time.
At the risk of speaking for others, I suspect that most of the developers could care less if you or any one else continues to use OH or moves to some other project. They work on OH because they want to and they will continue to do so whether you continue to uwe OH or not. They work on the project for themselves and because they believe in it. Not because users demand it.
Users have absolutely no leverage here. They are benefiting from the generosity of the developers. If you want something done, you either need to do it yourself or you need to go out of your way to make it as easy as possible for one of the volunteer developers to do it. But there are no guarantees even then.
If you want guarantees, hire a personal developer and tell them what to code. Of you use a pure open source project, be grateful for anything that gets built because the only reason it exists is because of the generosity of the developers. You may feel entitled, but in fact you are entitled to nothing.,
That doesn’t mean the developers are not trying their best with the time they have available. I know they do. And none of them want to have OH broken. But there are more issues open than can ever be worked off. More bugs and feature requests then can ever be implemented. So they will choose to work on what they think is most important, and that may differ from your priorities. But like I said before, as a mere user, you have no leverage. You can’t make them spend time on your problem if they think other problems are more worth their time.
If you can’t abide that, no open source project is for you. Go pay someone to code something to your exact specifications because not even a commercial project will meet your expectations.
Otherwise, be grateful for what the developers do and do your best to make their job easier and hope that what you need done makes the cut. Or become a developer yourself and work on what is important to you.
I think everything is said now.
It does not surprise me that a developer does not read such things.
Please return to the topic, so that we have a stable version 2.5 at Christmas
I second every effort users ARE doing for bug reporting, which should be welcome from a developer side no matter which enviroment its coming from.
Its his statement about the users are not living up to their responsibilties, if they dont want to register a Github account, to do bug reporting!
Its how this project (part of it) have chosen to work with it, while ignoring other oppotunities, such as the forum.
Try replace “complain” with the word “reporting”… Perhaps you´ll better understand where I´m getting at…
Side note:
You always seem to be rather focused on users are just here to complaint all the time… Perhaps its time for your to understand, users are here to report bugs and issues, because they care about the project! And anyone who do care about the project should accept and be pleased with this kind of effort as well as those who choose to use Github.
He can define whatever he want. He can even demand the users to meet him personally on his doorstep, if thats what he want. Thats his decision. Question is, is it effective? (no need to answer).
Arrogant?? The only one beeing arrogant is the one who refuses to meet the other on their playground. Thats arrogant. And this goes for users as well as developers.
I never said anything about developers have to spend time searching themselves… There are ways to make it more effective, such as using tagging. If they (both) care, I´m sure they will figure this out.
It´s all about willingness both ways!!
It´s the same! You risc the chane the a user dont want to spend the extra time filing this issue at all.
My point is, if one part refuses to work in the other parts enviroment, this can/will become a huge problem, unless they both meet eachother on both enviroments.
You simply cant demand one of them, without demanding both parts. Doing so, thats beeing arrogant!
Both you, and Marcus always seem to care about the time and effort the developers are spending. And you simply forget (or you ignore), the users time spending and effort. You shouldnt!
It is not sufficient, because “someone” have chosen it not to be. Not because thats the way it has to be.
Well, I must have missed that part then… Perhaps you can show me where I misssed it?
Which I agree should be an effort a user, who care, should invest. Just as well as I think a bug report on the forum is an effort I think a developer should invest, if he care.
Ofcouse, its´not fair to complaint and beeing upset if you havn´t done any effort to report it. This is not really worth discussing.
But this is actually not about complaints. It´s s try to look at it from both ways, insted of just focusing one way. As written above to Marcus, it´s a question of willingness, both ways!
We´re all spending lots of time, not just the developers!
Minimizing this time spending is a question of using the most effective ways, which in my opinion is both parts meeting eachother in their respective enviroments.
Then they should stay on the Stable version. The Testing and Unstable versions are designed specifically for testing & bug reporting.
How so? If they were ignoring us they would not publicly announce Testing releases here and the Foundation would not be providing this forum for users to assist others in using the product.
That is all they accomplish if they refuse to report the bugs where they can be fixed. Those users need to go elsewhere to complain.
Others exchange experiences here to help define bugs and report them to better the product.
Yes. Those users who REFUSE to use the organized, defined structure because they think they know better than the developers on how to organize a complex programming project are arrogant. I am glad you acknowledge that.
The Foundation Board who OWNS this project has decided that. You have right to change that but you are free to go elsewhere to someplace that works better for you.
and some users here are REFUSiNG to meet the developers in their GitHub environment to help resolve bugs. They then complain about said bugs not being resolved. That is insane!
Agree.
In an ideal world, where a stable release wouldn´t receive for any bug reporting. But is this really the case? In my opinion its not. Actually I do recall seeing several where the answer is, "this has been fixed in milestone… ". Which lead the user to install the milestone/testing release… He actually become a “tester” due to problems (and/or missing features, which to many users is the same) in the stable release. And now he suddenly has “responisibilties” and beeing demanded to use Github.
I thought we were talking about users vs developers, (or at least getting bugs/issues fixed).
So, those users who reported the MQTT problems in the RC1 release thread is, in your opinion, just complaining users which hasnt accomplished anything?
Thats a very sad way of seeing this 
Perhaps you should tell them, and pray to they´ll spend their time on the next release (wether its stable or testing).
OR to not complain if they do not properly report any new issue they may find.
When you open an Issue on GitHub you actually get comments & status updates.
IIRC they were trying to localize the bug to make it reproducible. i thought somebody then opened an issue.I do not use MQTT.
They were reporting an issue with MQTT after installing the RC1 release.
Dear all, to me it is very obvious that there is something missing in the structure:
So at least for “hot” Project phases, I think a change of structure is mandatory.
Also I would like to add one more comment regarding the tone which has to be digested by users. Shall we/they feel 3rd class? Feeling treated arrogant or patronised? The style how some talk about users here is embarrassing.
I have already developed robust Software which I wanted to rewrite to an openhab binding. But I better wait a bit.
Ideas and concepts are the driving factor for developers. These ideas and concepts are coming from passionate people with visions. Regardless of their qualification.
Best
Softy
Who would sponsor that to pay the bills? The Foundation cannot get that close to product development without jeopardizing their non-profit status.
Our developers and the Foundation board are very smart people who have set up the structure they believe is best for the project. They know much more of the internal details.
Maybe another passionate person can do the Admin Task - like Rich Koshak is not an openhab developer(as far as I know), taking care of documentation and other administrative parts
I meant paying for the software and web hosting. I doubt @rlkoshak is THAT generous & passionate about OH. 
I am sorry that you do not understand what I am talking about. Better ignore my statement.
Just came to think of it…
You started the thread, [SOLVED] OpenHAB 2.5 RC 1 Critical Issues
What was the purpose to start such a thread, if you believe those “lazy, none caring, all-time complaining users who dont accomplish anything”, are suppose to file the issues on Github? (Well, beside asking (demanding) them to do it twice. Otherweise they dont live up to their responsibilities!).
To me, those users did a fantastic job reporting their investigations. They did it in a thread you created for the very same purpose. You should be glad for what they did. They did spend their time, they reported their investigations just like you´d ask for. Yet you say, they accomplished nothing but complaints!!
It is possible to have discussion and collaboration without reporting. That helps improve the content of the reporting while reducing user error reports.
I am just a user here like you. The only difference is that I saw the Z-Wave database mess and helped clean it up. I file GitHub issues as needed,
I wasn’t going to respond any more but I need to clear up a missunderstanding here. The Foundation Board is not involved in the development of openHAB. They do not decide how issues need to be filed, what build systems are used, etc. The Foundation Board is there to own the openHAB trademark and to run communications and marketing about openHAB.
The core maintainers are the ones who developed how the over all development of openHAB is done.
I already do. But I can’t be the one who creates the issues. See my posts above: tl;dr the person actually experiencing the problem has to file it. I’m also not all knowing on all things openHAB. I can’t always tell whether something is a bug or working as it should. For most bindings I don’t even read the posts because I don’t know the technology.
When anyone on this forum is helping with a problem and it looks like there is a bug, link to How to file an Issue and ask the user to file an issue. I’ve seen several requests on the original thread asking users to do just that.
No one is saying that issues can not or should not be reported and discussed on the forum. But once it is determined that there is a real problem, an Issue must be filed on GitHub. Anyone who spends any time on this forum at all will see that roughly 90% of all the “something isn’t working right” posts are caused by a misconfiguration, a mistake made in the environment, or a known bug which already has an issue open. For the remaining 10%, what should happen and what does happen on all the threads I’m involved with is there is a gathering of information, some experiments and results posted to narrow the bug down, and then a request to the OP to file an Issue. In those rare cases where I’m able to reproduce the behavior on my own system, I’ll volunteer to file the issue.
Call it arrogant if you want. Demanding otherwise feels entitled to me. But this is how it works. This is how it is likely going to continue to work. So conform or refuse but realize refusing means that the problem will likely never get fixed.
To identify any regressions (i.e. bugs) and get those who discovered the regressions to file issues if one is not already in existence so the developers can rank and work them into their workflow.