Which built-In Roller shutter


(T) #1

Hi all,

sorry, if this question has already discussed elsewhere!

I am looking for built-in roller shutters. One requirement is to be able to read out the exact position.

  • Somfy Oximo IO seem to be encrypted but require control via their cloud and the Tahoma box
  • Rademacher DuoFern can be controlled with no cloud access (Using DuoFern USB stick – at the moment tunneled via FHEM and MQTT to openhab), but seem to support no encryption
  • Loxone Air seems to be an alternative for encrypted communication, but I did not find much information about it

What are your suggestions? Are there any good alternatives?

Best regards
demon


(Markus Storm) #2

Upfront please read and follow next time.

Your question is very unclear in various dimensions.

What do you mean by “encryption” ?
What do you mean by “built-in” ? If you mean built into openHAB then there’s many that OH can control.
But you need the proper hardware to run on (e.g. a 433 MHz RF stick or a ZWave controller) and HW is NOT part of OH.
Many people on this forum use ZWave w/ Fibaro or Qubino actuators to control their rollershutters.


(T) #3

Sorry, if my question was unclear, I try to be more specific:

Built-in roller shutters:
I mean integrated roller shutter motors like Rademacher RolloTube, no belt winder
To get access to the accurate position of the roller shutter, I need integrated motors with wireless communication, as, as far as I know this is not possible using switch actuators like Fibaro, Shelly, Qubino, … (rotary encoder is required)

Encryption:

  • Loxone claim to use AES 128 encryption to communicate between actuator and base station
  • Somfy seem to support encrypted and authenticated communication, but the protocol seems to be propriate and closes, so the OH binding seems only to be able to control the devices via their cloud access
  • From Rademacher I heard, that there is no payload encryption, but just a simple authentication using 2^16 different IDs for pairing. Traffic can be sniffed, even if devices are not paired.
    The obvious reason, I want encryption (and authentication/authorization) for, that I don’t want to get my roller shutters being remotely hijacked.

My main question is about the supported encryption and cloud access requirement (which I want to avoid), which should be part of the relevant bindings, therefore I put my question here.

Thanks in advance!


(Markus Storm) #4

So your question is a general one on Home Automation and has nothing to do with openHAB.
Please note that this isn’t the right forum for questions like that one.

You don’t need shutters to have integrated motor+communications for positioning to work. Motors just need to have switches to switch off when reaching top/bottom. Most do, and they allow for manually calibrating that setting.
With that in place, you can use any of the switch actuators you mentioned. None of them needs a cloud for the shutter to work.
As you are interested in security issues, I’d recommend to go for the ZWave ones rather than the Shelly (because that is WiFi).


(T) #5

Sorry, if I have to disagree, I don’t think you can use that switches for the intended purpose.
To be able to calculate the exact position (not only OPENED/CLOSED!) you need to have access to the integrated rotary encoders.
There are approaches using the measurement of the duration for opening and closing and by this calculating the current position, but you need to do calibration to be done regulary.
Sure, If there are other approaches, I would be glad to know.

Again, as I use OH and encryption/authentication/pairing, cloud API vs. direct connection to the controllers IS an issue of the bindings, I still think this is an question relevant for this community (as e.g. of the parallel thread about roller shutters based on external remote switches). If not so, I am sorry, then I’ll try to find the answers somewhere else.

EDIT: Whats the technical reason to prefer Wifi over Zwave for security reasons? Sure this is not an issue for this thread, but perhaps you could provide me a link to relevant information?


(Markus Storm) #6

You can - as the many people that use it like that are proving.
Those actuators have a calibration mechanism builtin that you can trigger at any time if you like.
For me, it was not needed to re-calibrate in 3 years.
Disagree as you like, take the advice or leave it.

You misread, I prefer ZWave over WiFi.
Essentially because WiFi devices can be attacked by botnets etc on IP level.


(T) #7

Sorry, I didn’t want to attack you… just discuss… :wink:
In my opinion using integrated sensors is always the choice over “guessing”. But thanks, I’ll have a look at that! :slight_smile:

Regarding security: I though of the base encryption (below IP level). Although I am no cryptography expert, Z-Wave seems to have some recent issues (although not really practically usable), WiFi seems to be safe (at least at the moment with good passwords).


(Markus Storm) #8

It isn’t guessing. The calibration process is measuring the time and power it takes to raise/lower the blinds.
It’s a method proven to work.
And by the way it’s the same method as the “integrated” systems use.

You haven’t heard that WPA2 was recently cracked and no longer can be considered to be safe?
Security guys tend to spend ages discussing theories and details while losing focus and the overview.
The essence is that the most likely attack is to come from a botnet or similar from the internet (eventually relayed through some internal IP device), and ZWave is safe there because it does not do IP.


(T) #9

Yes, for sure I heard of this, but same for Z-Wave issues. There will always be issues for both systems in the future.

You mention a completely different thing. If your internal system is compromised (because one has access on IP level) you are fucked up anyway.
Then, ZWave won’t help, because the attacker will also compromise your Z-Wave controller.
To solve the IP issue: Just use a dedicated, physically decoupled network and you are fine.
For the attacker sitting next to my house without physical access, the wireless authentication and encryption is the relevant question.

But I think this discussion goes far beyond the topic.
My question was, which roller motors with wireless encryption are supported by OH (and if there are any, if there is a need to go the detour via the cloud. My question was not about alternatives to roller motors, which I already know.
If OH does not support this (which I doubt ;-)), we can safely stop the discussion here and close the thread.


(Markus Storm) #10

I don’t understand your questions. Encryption is done in the actuator devices/controllers, OH has nothing to do with it so it’s just a question which actuator you choose. For ZWave or WiFi actuators, these use encryption.
So you can connect ANY motor to OH using one the actuators you mentioned yourself.
For integrated solutions you will not get anyone to list you every possible choice OH supports. Such a list does not exist so please stop asking for that.