Docs on how to backup openHAB

Why are you here? It doesn’t seem like you want to help. You’re telling @Kim_Andersen not to nit-pick words but that’s what you were doing from the very beginning of this thread. A menu is often something where you click a thing and other things that you can click appear. That very thing is on the docs with a list of chapters. Maybe there is a more precise term that could have been used, but surely you could figure out what Kim was talking about.

And look at the original post. It says that there is not good documentation and it attempts to start the conversation about making some by sharing a couple of ideas and asking for help. You say that openhab doesn’t have “backup” and it’s the user’s job to contribute that and to understand what files need to be backed up, etc. That’s what Kim is trying to get started!

Please back off of the aggressive tone and think about whether something is adding to or subtracting from the conversation of a user that is trying to help before posting it.

And Kim, good for you for sticking up for yourself!

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Because I wrote that section of the docs Kim references, and he’s misinterpreting them.
It’s actually not even openHAB docs but actually part of openHABian, which makes for a major difference because it’s different software and different people who wrote those docs.
I know that’s not obvious to a user but that’s also why the exact meaning of “menu” is so important in this case.

No that’s not what I said. Read again. I said openhab-cli is not a backup tool but Amanda is.
openhab itself will never ever “backup” everything a user would want to have backed up because it only
has access to the OH config but not to any persistence data, logs, and and other relevant runtime data like that stored in databases, Grafana and so on.

But backup for openHAB to include all of that IS THERE. It’s -> Amanda <-. You just won’t find it in the docs menu structure below/for “openHAB” because it isn’t part of openHAB.

Hence there’s not even a need for this thread IMHO.
That’s what I tried explaining but obviously failed. That’s why I was here to help.
FWIW, I also was the person to contribute Amanda to openHAB/openHABian, including extensive docs that Kim admitted he didn’t even read.
But I’ve given up on discussing, I’m out.

Huh!!

This is what I wrote about Amanda:

"I know Amanda has been documented somewhere (I didnt search specific for this, but I have seen tons of forum post regarding Amanda ). Amanda has also been partly documented regarding openhabian-config… Perhaps it just need to be placed in a “ Backup menu ” in Openhab documentation. I think Markus has already done a great job of documentation for this, right?

For the second possibility, openhab-cli backup , the situation is worse,…"

The last sentence is the reason why I did not read nor focusing on Amanda. Why should I, when I dont think there is a problem with it, (except the document is misplaced, in my opinion).

Just to let you know… I have not given up on this… I´m actually planning to do a “real live” backup and restore from my Rpi3B+ to my Rpi4. Unfortunatly my rpi4 is quite busy at the moment troubbleshooting the ipcamera binding for Matt. But as soon as he get it fixed, I will use my own system to do this, and then make a few screenshots from it as well. I believe such an example would be great for having in the documentation/guide.

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How I prefer to
Do it linked below. Plus I also do full textual config so I only have to backup files and can blast away the entire system and drop the files back and I have a working system.

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Very nice guide, Matt!

Image backup is highly effective. But… (there is always a but…).
When using small SD cards, this is a very good way of making regular backups. But using a rather big storage, (Harddrive, SSD etc.), image backups can be a pain. It takes longer to backup, and it takes longer to restore. Also the bigger size storage using, you´ll have to make more free space available on the storage where you keep your backups.

What I specially like in your guide, is your suggesting of having backup hardware as well as an UPS. I totally agree on that, (though I havn´t got my UPS yet, due to other issues like changing hardware quite often, which makes is a bit difficult to count how big the UPS is going to be, except for big enough.As well as dealing with, exactly what to connect to the UPS. I would prefere everything regarding smarthome/openhab, internet etc… (Bad excuse, I know… I´m lazy. And fortunatly we´re not suffering for lots of power outbreaks here in Denmark :roll_eyes:)).

You can always install two ups, does not all need to be be in the one. Ones which can notify a system to shutdown are great.

I use 64gb usd cards and my backups take up less than 2gb each and are fast to make and restore as the program skips blank space on the drive. Works well for me.

Yep, I read your article. And my plan is to get one bigger ups, and then install the server/client system on each.

The worse part of image copying is, if you have to shut down the system, take out your card, insert it into another system to do the copying, and then back to the original system, which you have to start up again… This is a procedure which requires a hard discipline and only very few people will do often enough. At least thats my experience.

Amanda already does all of that. No extra cards, no shutdown needed, it also compresses the image.
I don’t understand why you are discussing that. Just for the sake of … yes, what of? To not use Amanda at all cost?

You dont want to understand.

I´m 110% positive everybody would love to use a automatic backup procedure.

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It’s there. It’s called Amanda. openHABian menu option 52.
That’s why I don’t see the point in this whole thread.

If you have read the comments almost every time Amanda has been mentioned, you should be able to figure out why. But as I have tried to tell you a dozen times now… You dont read, nor listen or even trying to understand the reason. So you will never be able to get it. I tried a coupple of years ago, which just ended with you beeing highly unpolite and arrogant. I dont see any reason to start all over again.
But I will give you a slight hint (once again) - Not all users are equal! When you expect them to be, you will fail big time!

No, not at all.
If anyone on this thread (including you, Kim) could please explain in clear, concise words,
what’s missing or wrong about Amanda to be a comprehensive backup tool, please do.
But no references please, as these are usually interpretations or outdated and result in misunderstandings which I think is happening here all the time.
Just clear, concise but comprehensive wording.
Should be a snap if it’s so obvious, shouldn’t it ?

A coupple of years ago I had to argue with you, because I said Amanda is to difficult to comprehend.
As I said back then - A backup procedure should be easier to setup and use, than the actual system its suppose to backup.

Amanda is NOT easy. This is what I have read most people say about Amanda - It is difficult to setup.
Amanda requires high Linux knowledge as well as some special network knowledge if you want to use a network share. When it requires high Linux knowlegde, it is NOT easy for someone not knowing Linux. Even setting up a network share can/will can become a problem for some people.

When something become difficult to understand and to setup, its either not going to be used, or there will be tons of threads where people asking for help. This is a general fact!

Your opinion and answer was quite clear back then - I/users had to go study Linux. And you refuse to help people asking for help, if they havnt even given it a try.

This is why I wrote in my previous post:

Note - I am NOT going to argue with you again. So dont even try to get me started! You made your point very clear back then. I gave up on Amanda, which is why I do not focus on Amanda in this thread. Amanda is an option for those who have the knowlegde. And thats fine. But for those who havnt or cant waste their time studying high knowledge Linux there are alternatives which requires and do less, but still usefull and better than nothing.

I still believe openhab should supply with a better alternative of doing backups. But it seems like I´m the only one with this opinion, which is why I no longer provide ideas or suggestions.
I focus on whats possible in a reasonable manner, and will provide whatever help I can from this, by the use of openhab-cli.

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ummm… if someone is just starting out using openHAB, isn’t that a bit of a tall order understanding all those things.

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Well, you pulled my statement off its context, please don’t do that again. It was in response to

It’s about a comprehensive understanding of what “backup” means.
openhab-cli backup/restore will not make your house work again if your SD card crashes.

The crux is that no software nor docs will ever relieve a user from a need to and their responsibility to understand the backup eco system hence my statement.

For many cases, it should allow openHAB to work exactly how it was at the time of the backup though, not including external databases or parallel software.

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I’m kind of in a situation to need a backup to be able to restore after a fresh openhabianpi installation.

Let’s say, i know, what “openhab-cli backup/restore” does and i’m happy about this. But then i start to remember some of the quick&dirty changes i did (some solutions for serial ports f.e.). The problem is: there is no backup (like some notes or other documentation, filecopies, whatever). To lazy, to little time, …

What i understand is, that this is my fault. And i also understand, that there will never be a backup-tool, which matches my ex post expectations.

I realized three views on this topic now:

  • what we have is not sufficient
  • what we have is sufficient, but the user has to take care about
  • what we have is not to bad

What i think is, that from the ex post view there will never be a sufficient software-only-solution. In addition if you have do a restore, the reason will be unpleasant most of the times. It will be necessary, when you never expected or even wanted it to happen. So: no patience with the restore procedure i never gave a try before. bang!

Everyone likes to have a backup. What we have to think about (make everyone think about) for the backup is: what do we want to restore for what reason?

It might be helpfull to show some szenarios with common traps. Looking at my installation on a raspi this could be something like (ideas sketch only):

be prepared to a broken sd card

  • openhabianpi install
  • openhabian-cli restore
  • work through all my well documented modifcations using the menu
  • work through all modifications in the filesystem (like /etc/fstab for mounts, /etc/udev/rules …)
  • give it a try and repair all i forgot

be prepared for a broken z-wave usb stick

  • is this “backupable”?
  • is it “restorably” to new hardware
  • do i have do include all devices again

From my point of view, there are good tools for doing a backup/restore. Guidelines may be missing - possibly on a bundles-basis. I don’t really know. For me examples are always helpfull (not a concrete commandline but what to think about …).

It’s alway worth to discuss backup/restore. What i feel to be the wrong way is to discuss about a tool, which automagically backs up what i will expect when i already did the next restore.

So some people here are running oh since long an will for shure have some experience backing up and possibly - but even more important - restore. Just provide a list of thougts and findings. Nothing perfect.

This might be a starting point for more feedback and - possibly - some success, @Kim_Andersen.

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Ok, to summarize in my own words:

  • there’s nothing really wrong with or missing in Amanda
  • your opinion is it’s too difficult to setup. You have not tried or read its documentation lately.
    If you had tried you would know setup is fully automated except for the need to provide storage space via USB or NAS or AWS. Setup takes less than 5 minutes. Ok, and some reading time.
  • providing a UNIX directory for Amanda storage “requires high Linux knowledge as well as some special network knowledge if you want to use a network share.”
  • you think there’s others out there with the same or a lesser knowledge that might have the same problem and you want to help these people

I’m fine with that.
So let’s just settle down and see how many there are to share your view.

PS: just one thing: please change the thread title.
As it stands now, it contains generalized claims that are outright untrue.

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Regards your first point - There may not be anything wrong with Amanda. But its useless for many users, due to its required knowlegde.
I stand by my point from years ago - A backup solution should be a simple as possible. If not, people will simply wont be using it. Not because they dont want to, but because they cant and wont spend the amount of time struggling with it due to lack of knowlegde.
Regards your second point - No I have not read the docs lately. I was told to go study Linux, which I did not. Therefore no reason to try read it again. I may read it again, since you now tell me things has changed. But dont count on it for now. My focus is a simple and fast “work around” using openhab-cli, which most people should be able to understand, without requiring high knowlegde Linux and advance networking. For those how need help. I will be here helping them and not pointing at them to go study something.

Which part is untrue?

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