Whining about (non)functional status of OpenHab

Even after reading the tradfri thread I didn’t understand which version you are running. All I can say is that Tradfri is rock solid for me with every recent snapshot. My gateway is on 1.8.26, I use PaperUI configured bridge and things.

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Quoted for truth, I agree, I am running stable 2.4 with snapshot zwave binding

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Folks, can we please avoid language like this? Conversations break down really quickly when people start tossing around insults unnecessarily (even in jest).

@Bruce_Osborne, I’m not trying to single you out. I generally agree with what you wrote about snapshots versus stable versions, and I just don’t want to see valuable advice get disregarded due to language choices.

I personally value the OH community because we focus on solving our friends’ problems in a positive way. In other forums, it feels more like people are looking for a fight…and that’s just exhausting.

Sorry to interject with something completely off-topic. @dakipro, I’m wishing you the best of luck in getting this resolved.


I just said that because I expected a Sustaining Member to know more about the versioning system & OH stability than a Newbie like me.

I would encourage everyone to avoid rendering judgments based on expectations and personal opinions, particularly since we may not know the whole story. And I’m not saying that I’m better than anyone else at this–I definitely have my moments.

Again, I’m not trying to single you out, and I don’t want to lose the technical expertise you’ve demonstrated (which I suspect surpasses mine). I’ve just seen a few conversations devolve when people start getting into contentious back-and-forths that have little to do with the original topic–and often those arguments could have been easily avoided. Every time that happens, this community becomes a little less welcoming and engaging.

Years ago, I had a girlfriend who challenged me to ask myself “what if I’m wrong?” before saying things I might regret. The relationship didn’t last, but her advice did. It’s made me a better communicator and a better community builder, which is a good thing since that’s what I do for a living. :wink:


Well as I said in the first post, this is just a non constructive whining about openhab today, I guess only purpose of this post could be to get attention from people steering the project, to get focus back on the stability. On the home page www.openhab.org it says “100% Open Source. 100% Reliable.” Not sure how it is measured, but I can certainly argue about reliability right now.
I could have just purchased homeseer (and then be mad at them as I paid for something not working etc) and not even care about openahb, but I didn’t, I care about the project and community and I think it should be said out loud that openhab right now is not 100% reliable and that this should be addressed much better
(I know this is binding issue not openhab, but oh is nothing without bindings)

This might sound sarcastic, but this is my actual system today:

My colleague asked me the other day about getting into the home automation, and I was all so proud to help him, so I told him go to ikea and buy few lights, here is raspberry pi and everything will work fine, just install… well… home assistant?

Or you can install openhab, figure out karaf console inside another ssl console, then install manually different version of binding, but not the latest one, get milestone 2.5m1, it should be stable. Also, for z-wave get this other version, but not the snapshot as you might have to restart everything then. But you can make a rule that will do a restart for you, but since you have it in the docker that might be difficult, you might have to build shell script to do that inside container. But do not just do that as then you might have to restart this other binding, and not that other as it misses the keys or the controller… Or just install zigbee2mqtt to avoid openhab bindings completelly. And btw remote access will just stop working without any notification due to some reason not openhab related, so again, restart everything then, and fix the keys and bindings manually, and hope for the best.
And also, even if you are always on the stable version, when upgrading from stable to stable mqtt might completelly brake your mysensors and other integrations, and some other things will certainly stop working, but you know, you can always manually install old not supported mqtt binding back. There is a workaround for everything, its opensource, its great, its huge…

I hope someone else also understands why this is not best user experience.

Being a developer for fifteen years I totaly understand that things are dificult/impossible to fix sometimes, I really do. I even discussed with my boss to give me more Java projects just so that I can actively participate in code contribution to openhab (well not just for that, but partly).

But I also know that all worked fine on my system recently, and after few updates it doesn’t anymore. For me openhab went from hero to almost zero.

And I understand that Ikea broke some integration and that sometimes workarounds are needed, like restarting bindings and installing different versions, and that is great. However, tradfri thread is open in april 2018, other z-wave thread is opened in sep-dec 2018. And I understand that this is opensource and noone is obligated to do anything, but it sort of pushes on the patience a bit as some other opensource (or not) systems have it working, why shouldn’t we as well?

@J-N-K thanks for looking into it, here is post with description of my system and version numbers Tradfri 1.8.25 - offline - communication_error Basically I run all on stable version 2.4 today, to avoid the mess I described above.

I know that Tradfri is working fine for majority of users, but on that post there are several people who are having the issue, so “it works on my machine” does not quite work here.

btw, you can be sustaining member of foundation without any technical knowledge about openhab, all you need to do is to donate two beers a year (or one beer if you are in Norway…).

Stability of the system should be there all the time, regardless if you are a newbie or experienced members with understanding of how things work, it should just be there.

Thanks for listening, I hope someone gets some inspiration out of all this whining :slight_smile:

The stable release is totally reliable.
The unstable release is fairly reliable.
The snapshots are not guaranteed to function correctly.
Unreliability with snapshots is expected. It is usually less broken than Home Assistant’s official releases.

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Unfortunately: no.
You haven’t properly described and dissected the problem yet (or did I miss that when reading ?) so you blame “openHAB” for everything. That won’t enable any developer help fixing your issue(s).
Most replies (including Tadfri and zwave users) state OH 2.4 or 2.5M1 are stable for them.
So your generalized statement isn’t true and there’s something specific about your setup.
Please be more specific. What is your problem ?
Is it the Trådfri binding only ? Does it crash OH ? Does OH work if you disable/remove it ?
Is it the ZWave binding ? Does it spit errors ? Does it just not support devices of yours (yet, in 2.4) ? Does it work beyond those devices ?

Frankly: while you admitted your post is non constructive whining - if you have the time to write longish posts like this you also should be able to invest that time into describing, debugging and hairpinning your problems, so please do.

It’s fine to whine about e.g. the Trådfri binding needing restarts or ZWave not supporting devices, but clearly it is not ok to call OH instable because of that.
I guess you know this post, please take #6 - #11 How to ask a good question / Help Us Help You for serious.

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Markus, I think you have to read and understand his messages in a general manner.
If a user runs openhab and one single binding (fx z-wave) and z-wave seems unstable. It´s logic and a totally human reaction to say, openhab is unstable. This is how I understand his message.

What you´re trying to do, is to get him to tell exact what is his problem. But you then show you fail to understand, that he got several problems. And in all, it comes down to openhab (the main core/main software) running unstable. Wether or not its binding issues og core issues… It doesn´t really matter, cause in the end, openhab runs unstable…

Thats how I read and understand his messages. And I´m pretty sure, this is what he is actually trying to tell us.

In my opinion, he is not wrong. I can understand that a user can get this feeling. It doesnt mean you´re wrong. But you´re going into details which is not the points with his whinings.


I can understand your perception. As far as I experience it the problem is the decrease in stability of the snapshot versions. I was only running snapshot versions in my production environment for 2 years (2017-2018) and they were in overall very stable. I witnessed the same frustration 2 months ago when I was trying recent snapshots.
So I am now using 2.5M1 as a milestone release for the first time. This release works fine and as others already pointed out you might combine new snapshot versions only of the specific bindings you need but use 2.5M1 as core release. I hope that helps.
However, I think everybody here hopes that we will get back to more stable snapshots in the near future.

If running Stable, or possibly Unstable versions I can agree with you. But not for Snapshot builds!

The OP needs to understand the purpose of snapshots and that it is not a good choice for them. OpenHAB cannot correct a poor version tree choice. Even the chosen names point to which is expected to be more stable.

Remember, for quite a while, OH could not even be built with the new development process.

Which does NOT apply to the OP.

For a total beginner, maybe. But not for someone to run OH for a long time who even is a sustaining member, and clearly not as a generalized statement. Either way, it’s plain wrong.
Btw, he did not explain what “unstable” means.

Of course it does.
Without a proper statement of the problem space(s) and SW version, noone can even verify that claim, let alone provide help. Noone even understands what the problem is. The fact that the OP marked this as “non-constructive whining” does not make it any better. It’s still pretty useless as long as it does not state what the problem(s) actually are.
His OH instance runs instable. But there are many users to happily run 2.4 and 2.5M1 to contradict, so problem details and SW version obviously are of major importance. At most, the OP’s whining means that OH might be unstable when trying to use these features with those devices in that SW version etc he is using. Which is on the other far end of the spectrum of meanings.
It could also be outside OH’s scope such as rules to have errors or it could be the server failing (e.g. SD wearout). It can also as well mean that it’s the user’s fault: if someone runs a snapshot binding because he just bought the latest 'n greatest device, he mustn’t complain about that not working. He shouldn’t have bought those devices or knows he needs to show patience.
If he’s running a snapshot, instability is to be expected, even more so these days as everybody here is well aware that there’s currently many issues in snapshots caused by ESH reintegration and build system changes. All other work incl. bugfixing and testing also piles up because devs are so busy on that.

Anyone to run snapshots has been warned about implications of doing that upfront, multiple times.
The fact that snapshots were fine in past days does not mean you may expect them to be stable today. Actually this was back in the days when there were no milestone releases yet, so you can’t compare today’s snapshots to those 2 yrs ago.

Any sustaining member, SW developer himself and active on this forum, must be aware of that.

Hence my statement in post 5.

But then… You can run openhab stable and snapshot bindings… If something fails, who´s to blame. The snapshot bindings or the stable openhab? (perhaps the stable isn´t that stable after all… Think about it, its computer software, not everything has been deeply tested!).

I really think you guys seems to miss the point here… Specially for users like us, who have been here for sometime now…

My situation:
I run openhab 2.5M1 (which should be pretty close to stable).
I use these snapshot bindings:
pauli_anttila´s IHC binding because the latest changes was required.
Chris´s Zwave binding because it´s the only version running my devices correctly.
Guenther´s Velux binding (KLF firmware 2) cause it´s the only one available.
Matt´s Ipcamera binding cause its the only one available.

Since I moved to openhab 2.5M1 version a coupple of months ago I have had 2 major crashes… both within the last coupple of weeks…

Now you tell me - Where do I place this if I was to whine about it, openhab or the bindings?
Would it matter if I used openhab 2.4 stable? Probably not, since M1 is close to 2.4 stable.
Would it matter, if I used stable bindings? Maybe, but then my devices wouldn´t be running the way they should, which means, either I shouldn´t be using these devices, or maybe I shouldnt even use openhab. There doesnt seem anything inbetween according to you.

You seem very convinced, that stable does not fail. It simple cant fail you say. Thats wrong! It´s a peace of software, it can and it most probably will fail sooner or later. It´s all a matter of finding the right (read - wrong) combination. Well, maybe he just did!!

Going back to my setup… 2.5M1 running 4 snapshot bindings, (and a bunch of stable) working great for several weeks, and then it suddenly stopped working (chrashed). It crashed again aprox 2 weeks later… I did nothing, except changed a few items, sitemap files, (cleaning up, optimizing setup etc).

This has to mean something - Short term testing is not a guarantee that a stable is infact stable and can not fail. This goes for openhab core as well as bindings. It goes for everything inside the computer… It could even be a faulty hardware causing the crash, leaving out all software!

Now, was this a short term or long term testing? Did the first 6 weeks running great guarantee stable?
Was the chrashes actully due to snapshot bindings, or the 2.5M1 ? I can´t tell for sure, just as well as I can´t tell for sure, that stable version will not fail. And therefore I do not focus on things like this when a user are having problems. It doesnt really matter due to the way openhab/bindings/etc are beeing developed.

I do agree with you, that if you choose to run snapshots, one must be prepared to run into troubble. But please, do NOT even think this means, running stable it wont fail. The same preparation should be taken, even for running stable. Choosing to use snapshots should not mean, that you cant complaint about stability. But in my opinion, no user should even think of using a snapshot if the developer isnt available for fast responding… It´s waste of time!. Fortunatly, those snapshot bindings I use, the developers respond within a few hours, if I report something. This is how to get issues fixed fast when using snapshots and moving fast towards those stable releases.

Also try to understand - Given the fact the way things are beeing developed, specially for quite a few bindings, that way encourage the users to move onto newer/later build/snapshot, even though its a risc, cause sometimes its the only way to get things working. If noone does, there will not be any developing and noone to find possible issues.

This is simply general terms of using open source software. This is how things is… All developers works for free using their spare time… And I personally appreciate their hard work. But it is also a team work between the developers and the users as well. Both part needs eachother. Thats why I hate to see messages like this, attacking someone because he chose to be part of the team, even though he is right in his general saying - Things are or can become unstable, even when using stable releases.

Thats my opinion!

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And that is why software has these files called logs to help narrow down a crash like that. You obviously look at the entries before things blew up.

On a previous Python-based product I was able to determine a particular binding could crash the system if using the latest released Python version as recommended by the devs there.

You always take some chance when using snapshot software, Only you can determine if the stability risk is worth the potential benefit.

He didnt ask for help…

I do… things runs unstable… Thats enough for me to understand. And I couldnt agree more.

Question is why - But thats not part of his idea behind his whining. This is where you fail in understanding. He doesnt care why. He just state - Its unstable! He is NOT wrong in his statement.
You´re not right or wrong saying it´s his own fault. But you, like him, cant tell for sure, untill you know the reason. You just assumed it has to be down to using snapshots.

Remember - I DO understand your main purpose for saying like you do. But I think you´re pulling too much into his whining and misunderstand his purpose.

Exactly my point in my previous post!!!
And this is why I say, stop focus on this is a user using snapshots… he asked for it… It doesnt do any good. If you want to dig into his unstable situation, then ofcouse you´ll need more detailed info. But his post was for whining only, not for getting help.

Unstable can be cause by anything… This is where you and I see this differently… You seem to focus on the snapshots version. I dont really care. The fact is it´s unstable. And I cant tell him, its due to running snapshots, cause that´ll mean I´ll have to guarantee running stable will not fail. That I cant guarantee either. Therefore - I dont care if he is running stable/snapshot. It doesnt matter - Not untill we want to find the real cause of it. But thats not the point of his post.
Thats what I´m trying to say here.

He is wrong posting that & just whining on a forum that is focused on HELPING people with OH.

OH whining belongs on the Home-Assistant forum :wink:

But he didnt ask for help :slight_smile:

Hehe, yes :slight_smile:
And no… I would rather prefere people whine about OH in here, rather than everywhere else. Otherweise we can not help or at least, we can not defend what could be wrong…

But you just said

Split brain syndrome. VERY short memory or something else?