Zwave 800 Extender to utilize range benefits

Hi all,

With the Openhab Zwave package using 500 series commands. Is there any way to gain the benefits of the 800 series range if we were to pair an 800 series range extender? So if i were to have an 800 series sensor at my mailbox, could i put an 800 series extender in my garage and have it connect via the 500 backwards compatibility to the Dongle and gat the range benefits?

Thanks for the help!

I doubt it. To get that extra range probably requires hardware changes on both sides of the connection. So you can probably get that range between two 800 series devices, but for 500 series devices the range is going to be dictated by the 500 series range even if one of them is an 800 series device.

I could be wrong and hopefully someone who knows this stuff better than I will chime in.

Thanks for the reply… id have the 800 repeater in close range to the hub (500) and have the distance between the 800 range extender and the 800 series sensor in my mailbox to try and take advantage of the 800 radios

That might work, assuming that you don’t need an 800 series controller too.

Welp i think this solves that issue

Z-Wave: Long Range vs. Relay

Z-Wave systems running an 800 series Stick or gateway offer 2 different modes of networking ‐ star and relay. Both terms describe the topology of the network.

Star networking powers Z-Wave Long Range communication. With it, Atrim Stick or a gateway is the central controller. All other devices speak directly to it but they do not speak to each other. A maximum range of 2,410 metres / 1.5 miles can be achieved between the central controller and Z-Wave devices in the network.

Relay networking offers a shorter device-to-device wireless range. With it, Atrim Stick or a gateway is still the central controller. However, all other devices can speak directly to 2 other, close-by devices without communicating with the controller first. A maximum wireless range of 401 metres / 0.25 miles can be achieved between individual devices.

I had been working on a draft since the current binding will support 800 controllers in “Classic mode”, but not Long Range inclusion. Wanted get developer review first, so could be adjusted.
The 800 chip “Long Range” capabilit.txt (1.2 KB)

So as I think you concluded, an 800 extender will not extend beyond what a 700/500 extender could also do.

For what it’s worth, on my 500 series controller stick, I use several battery operated temperature and humidity sensors in both 700 series (Aeotec AerQ ZWA009) and 800 series (Zooz ZSE44).

I use sensors in my refrigerator/freezer. Since a refrigerator/freezer is basically a big Faraday cage, I notice that only the 800 series devices (the Zooz ZSE44) are able to stay in communication with the controller with the door closed. YMMV.

It could be that the ZWA009’s are simply bad at their 700-series jobs, but it’s plausible that the improvement of the ZSE44 is an 800-series thing, since I also notice that all of my 700 series devices seem to be better than their jobs than my 500 series counterparts (with my 500 controller).

Geeking out for a second: The temperature sensors are great, because they not only ensure food-safe temperatures, but also ‘behavioral changes’ of the device, such as one might see with a bad door seal, a ‘bent’ (nonplanar) door (yes it’s a thing) a broken auto-defroster system, food safety through a power outage etc.

Do I understand you correctly that I can buy an 800 series controller today, and run it with OH 4.x in classic mode? If so, that would likely be a meaningful improvement in network performance, even without LR.

Do you know if it would be possible to include something as a LR device using, the Silcon Labs Z-Wave PC Controller utility (simplicity studio), and then move the 800-series z-stick back to OH in order to utilize/control the device (in classic mode)? e.g. zwave:device:ca53c3df:node52

I did test that so, I’d say yes. This was my draft regarding your question.

Starting with OH4.1M4 700 and 800 chip Zsticks should work in the OH ZWave. The biggest beneficiary will be the new OH user as the 500 chip controllers are hard to find and cost more. For current OH users with 500 chip controllers, observed gains from 700/800 controllers may be modest. The top speed of 100KB/sec is the same. There may be a few more devices are in direct communication with the controller and the chip processes messages a bit faster. Your results may vary.

Haven’t tried, but strongly suspect no. As noted above long range nodes are 12 bit starting at 256. The max for classic is 232. Also secure devices need to be included in OH and OH doesn’t support S2 anyway. Lastly communication is on different frequencies

I suspect you’re right on all counts.

I’m turning up a new instance, so I can test it and report back.

As mentioned, my experience with mixing chipset/versions suggests that 700/800 devices on a 500 network are an improvement, but I think your characterization is also correct, which is that there will be yet another marginal improvement with a next-gen controller. I suspect it will be a larger improvement that what I have seen because there will be more symmetric communication: things that can be directly “talked to” will also be capable of being directly “heard from”. Then, exactly as you say, more things will talk directly to the controller.

I summarize Z-Wave as something like: “Z-wave is a mesh network technology. To make it work well, set it up so doesn’t need to mesh.”

Agree. Would also observe that a network “Heal” messes up routings, more than fixes them.
a) Prior to using zwave-js-ui (ZUI) I used zniffer data to build a table for routing.
zwavenodes.pdf (256.7 KB)
b) ZUI has that built in

For an 800 reference. It is at overview level, but there are some nuggets

Good luck in your testing!

I am using the Fibaro Zwave Smar tImplant module to monitor temperature in my pool… hvac input and output… its such a great thing to have. I plan on getting another to put in my garage freezer and fridge soon.