Google hosting

Hello,

I would like to start the discussion about moving the sources and anything related to OpenHab outside the claws of Google (and other Big Tech companies ultimately).

I tightened the firewall rules to the ASN level and openhab.jfrog.io got caught. Impossible then to update the packages. Google’s (and Youtube) censorship and actions over the last months are just showing how dangerous this company is for the freedom as we know it. Their behavior is not compatible with open source to my eyes.

I fully understand that from a developer’s perspective, integration and tools from Google are very attractive… but the “hidden” side makes that I would not give my soul to Google in exchange of using their products and services…

Easier said than done but… Would you please reconsider hosting stuff on Google cloud and find a hosting that respects its users

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So you mean abandon jfrog (google) and github (microsoft) as well? That would break contribution / compatibility in so many ways - i would wonder if anybody from the maintainers finds this idea worth to discuss. Did you notice what problems the shutdown of bintray caused?

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In an ideal world… yes. The biggest concern I have is related to Google’s actions. Microsoft’s actions are something to be worried about too, but Google is really by far on the top.

Before posting, I made a search in the Community posts and I got a hit on the Bintray shutdown you refer too.

Would people host their contents in North Korea (or company tied to North Korea)? This comparison may not be in the same level, but I hope I made the point.

The Internet we have valued so far, and our societies as we know them today are threatened by Big Tech’s actions. They think they are the Masters of the Universe and can do whatever they want. If they are not stopped soon, it may be too late. By using them, we are giving them the power they use to abuse on us. They day open source or openHAB will be seen as a threat to any of their interests, be sure the road will not be smooth at all. :roll_eyes: The Google Leaks book recently published has just confirmed all that was observed all these years.

Easy exercise… In Google Search (or www.startpage.com with same results as Google Search but no tracking) and type the following:

india i

You have different suggestions for your search.

Just add the letter V and suddenly, all suggestions stop.

Repeat the same thing on DuckDuckGo.

The first suggestion in DuckDuckGo should be enough to give you an idea of what is done on the Google’s side and the consequences all over the world. This is the visible part of the iceberg…

I hope this will convince you to think about it. :slightly_smiling_face:

Cheers.

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Hate to spoil your conspiracy theories, but I don’t really see where you’re getting at…

No worries pacive, this is not a conspiracy theory. Just how Google is manipulating search results. :slight_smile: It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled right? :slight_smile:

This is an interesting case, really. :slight_smile: I asked colleagues complete the same test at work (from a Windows 10 computer), and from Google Search (not sure if the www.google.com or www.google.country was used), and the live result was the one I was describing, not the one you are showing in your screenshot. I will check this one on Monday for sure. :slight_smile:

</tinfoilhatoff>

Goovermectine

Another thing that could be interesting to see is “how bad” the stuff is according to the links from the first page result. :slight_smile:

Setting this aside for the moment at least, if you are interested in security, privacy and the threats related, this should be a topic without “conspiracy theories”. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

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The reported effects ran on for some months, hidden in cries for help with "Where have all my addons gone?, “Why can’t I install this binding?” , “I cleared cache and now everything is broken!”, “My upgrade failed and now I can’t even get old version working!” etc. etc.
It was quite traumatic, and no doubt there’ll still be a few more cries yet as people who rarely touch their systems fall into the pitfall.

I hope it’s been a learning experience and maybe next time be less traumatic. By all means discuss the possibility of change, but as with any breaking change, real world decisions will balance desirability against disruption.

For “india iv” Google.co.uk is suggesting to me ivermectin and IVF results, usual rubbish. What are we expecting here?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I did not know this had such impact. My message was for a reconsideration on the hosting. For sure impacts have to be assessed and if this ever would be on the roadmap, this would take some time.

I was expecting that the suggestions would have stopped right after you typed the V, because ivermectin is some topic Big Tech does not allow you to talk about (success stories in India and other countries as well). I will keep you posted on what my colleagues get on Monday. Maybe they have unlocked it since… :slight_smile:

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I guess they realised you were onto their sneaky suppression of horse dewormer… I’mout.

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seems to me the issue is with your startpage.com search page. Its the one that is restricting your searches and not google.

I’d be more concerned with this so called non tracked search page that you’re using

Sad reality is… if you leave cloud vendors infrastructure and services, you need to commit your own time and other resources to do things. While it seems possible, in practice, it is pretty hard. You can with committed people, but it will never fly long term. Volunteers work is subject of change. Some people will work longer, some shorter due to arising obligations in other areas.

In fact, OH is not that bad since still fair chunk of infrastructure (as far I know) is hosted on dedicated servers which are not orchestrated by big tech.
If you want to spend your time in a productive way then it is much better to build content and tools to show people how to get free of certain organizations and live without them. You then have a chance to win small battle about individual souls which are within range of individuals such us.

Best,
Łukasz

I will ask Startpage for sure why the heck it is behaving in that way. I have stopped using it for a while now, as every search is still reported to Google.

OH is indeed not hosted in Google’s infrastructure, but openhab.jfrog.io is. :roll_eyes:

There are other cloud providers that have a smaller size than Google, but they still offer reliable infrastructure. Hopefully this topic will make several think about what I see as a threat (no tinfoil hat I swear :grinning:).

This is a repository with binary artifacts (maven repository, probably also deb). You can proxy it through your own server using tools such as Nexus/Artifactory and others. You can also swap OH build to rely on your proxy instead of jfrog.
All artifacts pulled once to your server will not be checked again (by default). You have a way to shield yourself. Its not that hard.

Best,
Łukasz

We already provide KAR files with all the add-ons to also support offline installation. If you use those, you will not depend on anything cloud related (small/big tech) and can also unplug your network cable.

You can download them at: Download openHAB | openHAB

If you ask JFrog to stop using Google, then we won’t have to do anything, nothing will break and other projects would also benefit. :slight_smile:

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I get the same result from DuckDuckGo as I do from Google. While I am also not a fan of many of the policies and procedures of many of the big tech firms I feel you are spreading the misinformation/manipulation you portray to want to prevent whether intended or not.

Thanks Łukasz, I will have a look at that one! :slight_smile:

Excellent! I will check this definitively. I thought JFrog had something to do directly with OH! :smirk:

This is very unfortunate indeed. I chose a bad example here for sure as it looks like something somewhere prevents me to have the same results as you have. I checked at work and using the Google Search with .com and it looks like the default search settings (language) were preventing me from having the same results as other search engines. I did not get yet any reply from Startpage to my inquiry. :neutral_face:

Goolagertine

However, something that was very obvious a few months ago, even if no suggestions were showed, the returned results on the first page were just negative information about it (and negative pictures as well as news), while DuckDuckGo was having success stories…

Anyway, you can still search on your own on penalties and other stories related to Alphabet’s companies. :slight_smile:

It’s even more complex. :slight_smile:

openHAB uses JFrog Artifactory to publish artifacts. JFrog uses the Akamai CDN. Akamai uses the Google Cloud for their CDN. So you may need to ask Akamai instead to stop using Google. :wink:

Google describes their methodology here:

“When a user searches on Google, Google tries to determine the highest quality results. The “best” results have many factors, including things such as the user’s location, language, device (desktop or phone), and previous queries.”

I don’t know enough about DuckDuckGo’s methodology, but it feels like you’ve just named them due to your Startpage example proving false. If you really believe you’re speaking truth, then it would make more sense for you to look into how Google search works and confirm it than to pick another example that might be just as false. Otherwise, you’re just drawing conclusions and trying to convince us based on narrow examples that support your preferred narrative.

Edit: added reference to Google’s documentation