Great to hear that there is development in this direction. Will this be part of openhab what means officially supported or another standalone development? I hope that openhab doesn’t run into the same fragmentation issues like android has. It will then be hard for the community and for users because nobody has the same structure and toolset running.
@Spaceman_Spiff 's HABApp exists today.
One issue if something is included into openHAB is having any accompanying restrictions and changes sometimes out of your control. If the UI can control OH through the API, other programs should be able to as well.
It’s currently not included in the distribution, but the plan is to have it added so it can be installed like any other addon. Unlike the other scripting add-ons though, the helper library (which makes it easier to write rules) is automatically installed since it’s packaged as a ruby gem.
The fragmentation is an issue with the scripting addons, or more correctly the different helper libraries, since they all try to utilize the strengths of the respective language, but as always it’s hard to impossible to offer both flexibility and consistency at the same time. Openhab in general leans towards the former.
1 Like
It was the intent for the former helper libraries to be included too but that did not happen.
I know there were discussions about this with the jython addon, but iirc the plan was to bundle the python files in the addon bundle. The jruby addon does it instead by installing it as a gem (i.e. it’s downloaded separately from rubygems.org). I don’t see any reason this wouldn’t be possible for jython as well by uploading it to pypi?
I do not know. The las discussions I saw on GitHub ended in a bunch of finger pointing.
Let’s move this discussion to a thread that is a little less than two years old.
I’ll leave a couple off comments.
-
Until recently and with this explosion of new languages and other rule alternatives being worked on openHAB has emphasized consistency over catering to individual languages or technologies. This was a guiding driver of the Helper Libraries and in fact @CrazyIvan359, who has graciously taken over stuardship of them (with a little bit of my help, hopefully more help later) is activity working to normalize Jython and JavaScript parts so they work the same. When I brought up my grave concerns that the jRuby implementation was deviating from this and we risk of balkinizaton of rules I was soundly ignored. jRuby is going to do it’s own thing and will become and remain it’s own “silo of excellence”.
-
A plugin for the Helper Libraries was created for OH 2.5 and it’s available on the IoT Marketplace. An OH 3 version of the add-on was never completed. And now that @5iver had disappeared from GitHub and openHAB, and given how he never really wanted to give up any sort of control nor encourage collaboration we are left starting over in a lot of ways. He was the only maintainer of the repo and with him gone that repo is dead.
So I’m moving to mainly supporting JavaScript in the UI first and foremost. Any docs I write will be for JavaScript in the UI. It’s all I can do right now. Rules DSL is limited (by design). All the other languages are add-ons and not part of core. The Helper Libraries are not even a part of the OH project.
And with the exception of what is being done in the Helper Libraries, nothing that is being done with Rules languages, be it HABApp, jRuby, the graals vm work @jpg0 is doing, etc. is paying any attention to this balkinizaton problem. The main focus seems to be in making rules “pure” to the language with no thought about making it easier for users to move from Rules DSL or Blockly or whatever to theses more powerful languages. Or to move from Jython to JRuby without requiring the users to throw out most of what they’ve learned and start over.
So here we are. “Canonical” anything covering rules is simply not going to be possible. Long time users of OH hopefully will be able to migrate to a new language with the Helper Libraries. Non-programmers are stuck in the UI or using Rules DSL. And all the other languages will have their separate, mostly closed off but inthusiastic sub communities. Documentation will suffer even more because each language basically has to write their own docs from scratch. They are too different to share much.
When/if we have a rules marketplace it will become even worse. jRuby folks won’t be able to use my tinerMgr libraries for example.
So over all I look on the path rules are taking with frustration and sadness.
9 Likes
Agreed Rich, you are a mod right? you can close this thread? If so please do, I don’t think anyone would mind
2 Likes
Thanx Rich, for this overview. I will then stay with DSL and ui rules and see what the future brings.
It‘s very unfair to blame @5iver for the missing Jython support or the missing helper libraries. It‘s not him who prevented the merge of the respective PR, that es someone else.
5 Likes
That’s very unfair @rlkoshak . I didn’t follow all the discussions when Scott was trying to get this merged, but I recall @5iver pushing this quite a lot - trying to get the PR merged and development moving, and it was rejected many times. This is one of the issues with OH - many developers are pushed away from the project due to lack of interest from “management”.
I also think it’s a little unfair to talk about people like this without @mentioning them properly so they have a chance to respond!
8 Likes
easy boys… let’s let this one go…
Sorry - but I do think that people should have the chance to respond when they are attacked. This is an open forum - there is normally more than one view, and people should be able to present their view. I agree - everyone should play nicely, but I don’t think what I wrote was in any way inflammatory - sorry if it was interpreted that way.
4 Likes
Neither do I Chris, and I agree with both of you. I just think it best if we let sleeping dogs lie.
I very much understand the sentiment, and I’m not normally one to jump in to these discussions. However there are some issues with OH development - a number of key developers have been pushed out over the past 2 years or so and this is a real shame. Probably discussing it here won’t help (people have tried) so you’re probably right - just let things go… 
3 Likes
There’s is no blame here. But the fact remains he is gone. He was the only maintainer of the Helper Libraries so no one can continue support and enhancements.
I tried to help in little ways with an intent to take one a larger rule but all of my PRs were ignored for two-three years. These included updates to docs and a three line function.
I found it ironic that he was so upset over someone doing the exact same thing to him that he was doing to us
When I finally went to finally close out those years old PRs I discovered he blocked me. He didn’t want my help. He didn’t reach out to get help from anyone else. And now he’s gone.
There was certainly some drama over the PRs but frankly both sides were being unreasonable and the users suffer.
I’m not telling about his PRs to core. I’m talking about the Helper Libraries. I’m aware he pushed very hard to get PRs accepted and he died not get a fair shake there. But my point was he didn’t do any better with his own repo. So it’s hard to feel in that much sympathy.
And I don’t blame him for leaving. But his lack of getting even one other person to be a maintainer of the Helper Libraries left us in the lurch. That’s a simple statement of fact.
I thought I had. I’ll go back and change it.
But again, I’m not blaming anything on anyone. I’m just stating the current state of rules in oh as I see it. Lots of good work lost. be Lots of good work that will forever remain in a small community of enthusiasts without any way for them to easily work together or for basic and Rules DSL users to migrate to them without needing to relearn everything.
I can’t figure out how to split the topic on my phone so it will have to wait kk until I get to a computer Sunday or Monday.
2 Likes
maybe this could be helpful
3 Likes
+1 to closing this thread and splitting the recent discussion. I shudder every time I see it pop up in the list of recent posts (I had already turned off notifications). 