Matter is here, where can I jump in?

Matter is here, where can I jump in?
I’d like to start contributing.
@chris you suggested that the zigbee java library you developed may be adapted.
Have you done any investigating?
Any thoughts?
As soon as Yale releases their Assure deadbolt Matter module, I will be buying them.

Consumer Reports opines about Matter

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I’ve not looked too deeply at Matter at the moment. Until there are real devices it’s still better (IMHO) to stick with devices that are known to work.

There will be little or no advantage over Zigbee - the cluster library is the same, the RF protocol (802.15.4) is also the same - the only difference is in the middle layers (networking). As a user, you will not see any difference.

I would expect that the lock itself is the same for zigbee, zwave, matter, and the other protocols Yale support. They normally have a small module that plugs in to support different protocols - I would suggest to go for Zigbee so you have something that is tried and tested.

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I think it’s worth noting that Matter and Thread are two different things. Matter encompasses both Thread and WiFi connectivity.

While openHAB could be a border router (with a USB Thread dongle), a home really only needs one such device (though it doesn’t hurt to have more). Matter will enable WiFi-only devices to exchange commands/updates with Thread devices using the border routers as intermediates.

Obviously it would be more direct to have openHAB connect directly to Thread devices, but the real gain of Matter is that consumers won’t have to think too hard about any of this.

Assuming I haven’t completely misunderstood Matter, the big question is: how can openHAB talk to a border router over WiFi and access its list of Thread devices?

It’s possible that something like the Amazon Echo Control binding is already close to accomplishing this.

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Unfortunately I cannot participate with developing, but, I expect to be able to participate in testing once devices start popping up.
I’ve been asking around (aka: annoying) about matter both here, and zigbee2mqtt, because while @chris is right in that there will be little advantage over already existing solutions (for me, all of this topic screams zigbee v1.0 vs zigbee v3.0, but I’m getting old and jaded.) the truth is that the market (vendors) views this as a reset switch and a new opportunity to enter the market - and they are investing hard.
I can confirm that over at Bosch there is a HUGE focus in adopting matter (link here).
Other companies are relaunching equipment (ikea - new gateway) to adhere to matter.
Do we need this?
No we don’t.
But from my perspective this will bring new vendors into the fold, new devices, new ideas, new possibilities.
Any new player in the smart home market has the opportunity to shine and grow.

And being ready to take advantage of this new world of possibilities is exactly the kind of thing that usually gets our blood and imagination pumping, is it not? :slight_smile:

I’ve read around that the sonoff plus dongle (P/E not sure which) should be able to work with matter with a firmware upgrade. (The question being whether one dongle would be able to deal with zigbee and matter both, or if a second dongle, with a different firmware would be required). Maybe all we need is a show of community interest to get it going - I’m more than happy to oblige :slight_smile:

Oh, and don’t forget that home assistant have something already too, here.
Maybe half the work is already done?

Sorry for the long post - just trying to share some info and the enthusiasm :slight_smile:

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The lock is the same and I already have an Assure lock with the Zigbee module. I’m planning on purchasing the Matter module when it is available

I’d like to jump into refactoring just for my own education

I don’t think there is a pure java implementation of Thread. Along with the dongle(which I have), it likely would be like an MQTT broker. I would guess that you could run the Border Router from a docker image.

I do already have a Thread border router in my network. My AppleTV 4k. I saw it while sniffing my network a few months ago

Please don’t get me wrong - I’m not against Matter, and am not saying that people should stick with Zigbee forever. Matter in many ways is the next Zigbee - it uses the many parts of the same protocol, and is governed by the same “Zigbee Alliance” (now renamed to Connectivity Standards Alliance). For sure I will look to update things as Matter starts to become available.

My point is more about the “now”. Currently, Matter devices don’t exist, and the standards are still only just emerging as version 1. I’m simply stating that for the average user, the advantage “now” is negligible, and I would not wait for XYZ manufacture to come out with their Matter device if there is already a Zigbee version.

In the specific case of these locks, they will likely have the ability to change the module to support matter once it’s available, so my personal recommendation would be that if you want to have a certain device in your house, don’t wait for the next fancy technology that’s (always) “just around the corner” if there’s something suitable now.

Yes, again, these dongles all support the 802.15.4 protocol - that is what Zigbee and Matter are based on. Generally these dongles don’t do very much - they provide the low level layers (physical and network) and the application (eg the binding) does the rest.

Great stuff, and please don’t interpret my comments as being negative about Matter as that was not the intent. I was more reacting to the idea of waiting for a new lock to become available with Matter, when existing devices that will (to the user) be exactly the same are available now.

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OpenHab would talk to a Thread device via ipv6, through a border router. So actually OH would not necessarily need to know anything about Thread and 802.15.4.

And really, OH would not even have to know about a Border Router

Great thanks for volunteering as work does need to start on this asap. Please see this thread.
[Feature request] Support to Matter standard · Issue #10761 · openhab/openhab-addons (github.com)

You can get ESP32 sample code for matter over wifi and have a device to start testing and developing with as well as a number of other ways to get started, which are mentioned in the thread linked above.

There is a big advantage for manufacturers and that is the device has your wifi details and I am assuming nothing stops them from sending data back home. Some may see this as a disadvantage, but it will get far more products on the market then Zigbee ever has.

Agree, the advantages are for vendors and not users in the beginning, although users will benefit by more choices and more devices to choose from.

No as Chris wrote, the hardware is simple and the bulk will be in the binding. Also I see it as interesting that they have branded it as ‘‘home assistant’’ and not Nabu Casa or another brand. A company that is using an opensource project to push personal hardware hhmmm.

Sorry - you quote me here out of context. I was directly answering to @smitopher and referring to the user perspective, and the fact that @smitopher was waiting for a specific device to change to use Matter.

Possibly, in the Zigbee-HA space, but not in other spaces - at least not for a very long time. Zigbee-SEP is a big market and I don’t think Matter is even looking there.

I agree there are advantages in matter and it will likely help everyone once it’s really in prime time. Please don’t interpret my response as being negative toward matter and I was simply trying to relay that as a user, I would not wait for “12 months” (feel free to pick another timeframe) for a device to be changed to use matter, and for OH etc to support it, when solutions exist now.

In 12 months, or maybe 6 (or whatever) the situation may be different. I’m more than happy to look at splitting out the ZCL aspects to use them outside of the lower layers of zigbee, and possibly the zigbee binding (which mostly deals with ZCL) can be ported relatively easily to support this, but right at the moment I’ve not looked at it.

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Apologies if I took it out of context we both agree and it’s a complex topic. My concern here is, let’s not talk someone out of volunteering. It needs to be done and the more willing to help the better. For someone willing to contribute I would totally encourage them to skip ZigBee and go 100% with Matter, they will have an idea of what it will mean or they soon will :blush:. For a normal end user I would take the stance you have in your posts.

By no means am I trying to go 100% matter next week. My system is quite diverse.

OH on small Ubuntu hockey puck server

Zigbee/Z-wave dongle

Zigbee

  • Leviton Dimmers and switches
  • Yale Assure Locks
  • 3 Aquara Devices
  • 4 Sengled sensors

Z-Wave

  • Leviton Dimmer
  • Bali Shades
  • Leviton Fan controllers
  • Smoke/CO alarms
  • Honeywell Thermostat

10 TP Link WiFi dimmers, switches, and bulbs

Lutron Caseta Hub (what I started with in my previous house, I just left the dimmers in the wall)

  • 4 lamp dimmer plugs
  • 6 Nano remotes

OpenWeatherMap
Astro binding
Owntracks binding
Telegram binding
Homekit binding
Openhab Cloud

Really, it’s kind of a hot mess :laughing:
I dream about it being much simpler to find the devices I want at non-stupid expensive prices. Then orchestrating it all so that it reveals a better home.

I’m a Java dev, so I would like to contribute

That’s what I was trying to say earlier. If Matter works out as planned, openHAB can either be a Thread border router or just talk to another border router such as your Apple TV, an Echo/Nest device, the IKEA hub, a Nanoleaf device, etc.

To me, this is what Matter is about. The goal is to make it easier for everyone in general, and average consumers in particular: people who just want to buy something off the shelf, take it home, and get it working without having to sacrifice a live chicken in the process (:chicken: + :fire: = :poultry_leg:).

The promise of Matter is that you plug a device in, tell one of your border routers to find it, and then start playing with it. It might use WiFi or it might use Thread, but you don’t need to care too much.

We have a warped perspective on all of this stuff, because we’re all very willing to sacrifice a lot of chickens (:poultry_leg: + :plate_with_cutlery: = :yum:). Heck, I just spent a week trying to figure out why my print server was spamming bad-request errors at openHAB. That is not normal.

Saying all that, I agree with @chris and @matt1 that it’s a long game. I think it probably just feels a little overdue since it took this long for Matter to get off the ground. Hopefully the manufacturers can pick up speed now that it’s official, and I can start recommending it to friends who like my openHAB setup, but aren’t willing to put in the time and effort that home automation has typically demanded.

I see it as an example of opensource success. The goal of openHAB is to do just that, allow the hot mess to work together so you’re not stuck in a single ecosystem with high prices.

Since there already exists opensource ESP32 matter based projects, this could allow very cheap devices by just flashing some code to an esp32 and connecting a ready made sensor board or two. Also as Matter devices get released, we will probably see some cheap Zigbee devices getting cleared out of stores. Fingers crossed that Matter will help bring prices down in multiple ways and more devices to choose from.

Great, welcome, and we need more people with that stance. Chris has given you some info in his posts on code that is already written and could be re-used, check it out and be sure to contact him on how best to proceed in certain areas that overlap. Big thanks for @chris for doing all he does.

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yummy :yum:

Wait…that’s not normal? I’m confused.

Depends on who you ask. According to my sister, it is not normal.

I’d ask my significant other, but lately I’ve been more interested in tinkering with my home automation than dating.

My sister may have a point. :thinking:

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What makes this any different than the existing situation though - it’s exactly the same as we have at the moment with Zigbee. There currently exists open source zigbee implementations for the EFR32 and also TI chipsets (and Atmel etc) and people do create their own projects from this. I appreciate that the ESP32 has more of a cult following - possibly due to the WiFi, although Espressifs latest device (the ESP32-H2 IIRC) has Zigbee compliance (and Thread) but has no WiFi.

I’ve not checked, but I would expect that devices will need to be certified to ensure they are compliant, and this costs a reasonable amount of money at the moment (I’ve been through this process already with the Connected Standards Alliance). Without this, we end up with the same situation we have now with the cheap Chinese devices that claim to be Zigbee, but in reality don’t conform to the standards and are not interoperable.

Anyway, we’re probably off topic, and I’m possibly being a little sceptical that everyone expects this to magically solve all the worlds smart device interoperability issues but I I’m not yet convinced. It has promise, but I really don’t know that it will suddenly unify everything :slight_smile:

Generally they will be upgradable since it’s “just” a firmware upgrade from Zigbee - the hardware is the same. Some might get dumped, but don’t bank on zigbee becoming cheaper - except with the non-compliant Chinese devices :wink:

Over time, some elements of Zigbee will no doubt drop off and be replaced by the newer protocol, but some won’t. In commercial systems such as smart metering, I don’t think there’s any move to change and there are huge user bases of these systems in Europe and the US that will be around for a very long time I think. I’m working with a very large company in the US to produce more zigbee devices in this market.

See the following repository -:

This contains the main zigbee library - it would be possible, and reasonably easy to separate out ZCL from this into a separate bundle. As said above, a large chunk of the zigbee binding may also be reusable since it is mostly dealing with ZCL.

I would say I’m more “hopeful” than “expecting”, but it’s less about the technology and more about the buy-in from companies that spend a lot of time disagreeing with and suing each other.

The closest analog I can think of is USB: tech companies saw that legacy computer ports were a problem and got on board. USB has never been quite as foolproof as was promised, but it has had an undeniably huge impact on consumer technology just by making it easier to plug things into other things.

I don’t expect Matter to be perfect, but could see it having a similar effect over time.

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Nice analogy. I should reiterate that I’m not wanting to appear negative here and I’m also hopeful - but your point about “time” is very relevant. I don’t expect it to be a magical fix on day one, but I do hope that over time it will help everyone.

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