I can understand your perception. As far as I experience it the problem is the decrease in stability of the snapshot versions. I was only running snapshot versions in my production environment for 2 years (2017-2018) and they were in overall very stable. I witnessed the same frustration 2 months ago when I was trying recent snapshots.
So I am now using 2.5M1 as a milestone release for the first time. This release works fine and as others already pointed out you might combine new snapshot versions only of the specific bindings you need but use 2.5M1 as core release. I hope that helps.
However, I think everybody here hopes that we will get back to more stable snapshots in the near future.
If running Stable, or possibly Unstable versions I can agree with you. But not for Snapshot builds!
The OP needs to understand the purpose of snapshots and that it is not a good choice for them. OpenHAB cannot correct a poor version tree choice. Even the chosen names point to which is expected to be more stable.
Agreed.
Remember, for quite a while, OH could not even be built with the new development process.
Which does NOT apply to the OP.
For a total beginner, maybe. But not for someone to run OH for a long time who even is a sustaining member, and clearly not as a generalized statement. Either way, it’s plain wrong.
Btw, he did not explain what “unstable” means.
Of course it does.
Without a proper statement of the problem space(s) and SW version, noone can even verify that claim, let alone provide help. Noone even understands what the problem is. The fact that the OP marked this as “non-constructive whining” does not make it any better. It’s still pretty useless as long as it does not state what the problem(s) actually are.
His OH instance runs instable. But there are many users to happily run 2.4 and 2.5M1 to contradict, so problem details and SW version obviously are of major importance. At most, the OP’s whining means that OH might be unstable when trying to use these features with those devices in that SW version etc he is using. Which is on the other far end of the spectrum of meanings.
It could also be outside OH’s scope such as rules to have errors or it could be the server failing (e.g. SD wearout). It can also as well mean that it’s the user’s fault: if someone runs a snapshot binding because he just bought the latest 'n greatest device, he mustn’t complain about that not working. He shouldn’t have bought those devices or knows he needs to show patience.
If he’s running a snapshot, instability is to be expected, even more so these days as everybody here is well aware that there’s currently many issues in snapshots caused by ESH reintegration and build system changes. All other work incl. bugfixing and testing also piles up because devs are so busy on that.
Anyone to run snapshots has been warned about implications of doing that upfront, multiple times.
The fact that snapshots were fine in past days does not mean you may expect them to be stable today. Actually this was back in the days when there were no milestone releases yet, so you can’t compare today’s snapshots to those 2 yrs ago.
Any sustaining member, SW developer himself and active on this forum, must be aware of that.
Hence my statement in post 5.
Agree.
But then… You can run openhab stable and snapshot bindings… If something fails, who´s to blame. The snapshot bindings or the stable openhab? (perhaps the stable isn´t that stable after all… Think about it, its computer software, not everything has been deeply tested!).
I really think you guys seems to miss the point here… Specially for users like us, who have been here for sometime now…
My situation:
I run openhab 2.5M1 (which should be pretty close to stable).
I use these snapshot bindings:
pauli_anttila´s IHC binding because the latest changes was required.
Chris´s Zwave binding because it´s the only version running my devices correctly.
Guenther´s Velux binding (KLF firmware 2) cause it´s the only one available.
Matt´s Ipcamera binding cause its the only one available.
Since I moved to openhab 2.5M1 version a coupple of months ago I have had 2 major crashes… both within the last coupple of weeks…
Now you tell me - Where do I place this if I was to whine about it, openhab or the bindings?
Would it matter if I used openhab 2.4 stable? Probably not, since M1 is close to 2.4 stable.
Would it matter, if I used stable bindings? Maybe, but then my devices wouldn´t be running the way they should, which means, either I shouldn´t be using these devices, or maybe I shouldnt even use openhab. There doesnt seem anything inbetween according to you.
You seem very convinced, that stable does not fail. It simple cant fail you say. Thats wrong! It´s a peace of software, it can and it most probably will fail sooner or later. It´s all a matter of finding the right (read - wrong) combination. Well, maybe he just did!!
Going back to my setup… 2.5M1 running 4 snapshot bindings, (and a bunch of stable) working great for several weeks, and then it suddenly stopped working (chrashed). It crashed again aprox 2 weeks later… I did nothing, except changed a few items, sitemap files, (cleaning up, optimizing setup etc).
This has to mean something - Short term testing is not a guarantee that a stable is infact stable and can not fail. This goes for openhab core as well as bindings. It goes for everything inside the computer… It could even be a faulty hardware causing the crash, leaving out all software!
Now, was this a short term or long term testing? Did the first 6 weeks running great guarantee stable?
Was the chrashes actully due to snapshot bindings, or the 2.5M1 ? I can´t tell for sure, just as well as I can´t tell for sure, that stable version will not fail. And therefore I do not focus on things like this when a user are having problems. It doesnt really matter due to the way openhab/bindings/etc are beeing developed.
I do agree with you, that if you choose to run snapshots, one must be prepared to run into troubble. But please, do NOT even think this means, running stable it wont fail. The same preparation should be taken, even for running stable. Choosing to use snapshots should not mean, that you cant complaint about stability. But in my opinion, no user should even think of using a snapshot if the developer isnt available for fast responding… It´s waste of time!. Fortunatly, those snapshot bindings I use, the developers respond within a few hours, if I report something. This is how to get issues fixed fast when using snapshots and moving fast towards those stable releases.
Also try to understand - Given the fact the way things are beeing developed, specially for quite a few bindings, that way encourage the users to move onto newer/later build/snapshot, even though its a risc, cause sometimes its the only way to get things working. If noone does, there will not be any developing and noone to find possible issues.
This is simply general terms of using open source software. This is how things is… All developers works for free using their spare time… And I personally appreciate their hard work. But it is also a team work between the developers and the users as well. Both part needs eachother. Thats why I hate to see messages like this, attacking someone because he chose to be part of the team, even though he is right in his general saying - Things are or can become unstable, even when using stable releases.
Thats my opinion!
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And that is why software has these files called logs to help narrow down a crash like that. You obviously look at the entries before things blew up.
On a previous Python-based product I was able to determine a particular binding could crash the system if using the latest released Python version as recommended by the devs there.
You always take some chance when using snapshot software, Only you can determine if the stability risk is worth the potential benefit.
He didnt ask for help…
I do… things runs unstable… Thats enough for me to understand. And I couldnt agree more.
Question is why - But thats not part of his idea behind his whining. This is where you fail in understanding. He doesnt care why. He just state - Its unstable! He is NOT wrong in his statement.
You´re not right or wrong saying it´s his own fault. But you, like him, cant tell for sure, untill you know the reason. You just assumed it has to be down to using snapshots.
Remember - I DO understand your main purpose for saying like you do. But I think you´re pulling too much into his whining and misunderstand his purpose.
Exactly my point in my previous post!!!
And this is why I say, stop focus on this is a user using snapshots… he asked for it… It doesnt do any good. If you want to dig into his unstable situation, then ofcouse you´ll need more detailed info. But his post was for whining only, not for getting help.
Unstable can be cause by anything… This is where you and I see this differently… You seem to focus on the snapshots version. I dont really care. The fact is it´s unstable. And I cant tell him, its due to running snapshots, cause that´ll mean I´ll have to guarantee running stable will not fail. That I cant guarantee either. Therefore - I dont care if he is running stable/snapshot. It doesnt matter - Not untill we want to find the real cause of it. But thats not the point of his post.
Thats what I´m trying to say here.
He is wrong posting that & just whining on a forum that is focused on HELPING people with OH.
OH whining belongs on the Home-Assistant forum 
But he didnt ask for help 
Hehe, yes
And no… I would rather prefere people whine about OH in here, rather than everywhere else. Otherweise we can not help or at least, we can not defend what could be wrong…
But you just said
Split brain syndrome. VERY short memory or something else?
Yes, I thought you meant in general…
The OP of this thread didn´t want help. He wanted to whine… Thats fine by me.
If he want helps, I´ll agree with Markus, he need to stop whining and starts given details.
But I will still let him whine, at least untill he whines about something which (in my opinion) is obvious wrong. Then I´ll start attacking him 
And that is what I did.
OH is rock solid compared to Home-Assistant!
If they DO post a problem, most people that could help will have muted the whiner’s thread. Then they can complain about us not being helpful.
I wouldnt know, cause I havn´t used HA except for a coupple of hours.
But I know and have experience with OH, and it has certainly crashed on me as well, even when running stable version.
I could have whined as well. Insted I took hand on it, moved on and ran into a plenty of problems with snapshots
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I am glad that someone understands what I am trying to say, @Kim_Andersen explained it better than I did.
Since we are having a nice conversation now, let me clarify few things.
I am running latest stable release of openhab 2.4, with stable Ikea Trådfri binding. Also stable Samsung TV binding (that I gave up on long time ago) and I am also running stable mqtt binding that suddenly changed fundamentally the way it works, thus braking every integration I had in the latest stable update. So saying that I got into trouble myself by running unstable releases does not make any sense in this case.
Also it defies statements that stable release is totally reliable, it is just not true. The reason I am on stable is because I want it to be, well, stable.
I do run z-wave binding that is not on 2.4 branch, not because I use some new shiny device, this device is at least 4 years old and is supported for more then 3 years, see the discussion here from 2016 . Not exactly new and shiny in any way. I also returned one device to the seller, and new one I received has same issue. So tested with three devices from different countries, they all have stability issues. The reason I am on newer z-wave binding is actually stability improvements that did solve some problems. And I did not just started whining here without any arguments or prior actions, I did start these threads I mentioned in the very first post with intention of helping fixing it. Here and here . Anyone interested in details about the issue can look into it and continue discussion there.
About the Ikea, if you check last few messages here you will see that there are several people having exact same issue: @Orfait , @seeers, @andres_meyer , @shutterfreak, @OMR and probably someone else who never bothered to write about it. So I am failing to understand how is this issue working for everyone else except me, and what did I do wrong with my specific setup.
I feel very wrong naming bindings and probably their developers as I am very very grateful for awesome work they did on the project. I really am. But It just had to be said that some issues are preventing some users to successfully use and enjoy openhab.
The reason I am not pushing on those issues is because I know and understand that there is huuuuge job in the migration code from eclipse, so I am patiently waiting for that to be finished so that developers can focus on fixing our issues.
And btw, being a sustaining member doesn’t mean jack, it is not something you deserve, you send 10usd a year and you do not even support project development, money goes to foundation that promotes openhab, writes documentation and provides demo of cloud service. So no code is actually written thanks to my 10usd, and I do not need to have any technical knowledge of how and why things work internally because I support foundation that promotes the project. These just do not relate.
But I am pretty sure I am not talking just in my name, there are several people having stability issues, some mentioned it on this very post. And I understand that these are bindings issue and not openhab core, but two do not live separately nor can you use them separately, so openhab is all of its bindings together, cannot be separated in any way, entire system is unstable for quite some users.
And I am willing to take the rage of people who are in love with openhab (including myself) and of people hating whiners and lazyasses (including myself) in order to get the point out in the name of all of us having stability issues:
Things are just not stable enough, even on the stable release. This should not be the case as one of the main strengths of openhab is stability. Stability needs to be improved
@Chris and @sihui here are very good with zwave troubleshooting & analysis if you give them a chance. Nobody knows the zwave binding better than Chris.
They certainly are, and are actively looking into my case when they get the chance. As Kim also mentioned, I do not want to draw their focus of the migration process, I understand they will look into my case as they did many times before.
I would like to prioritize stability of all bindings as next big thing after the migration. Perhaps change some development routines, some core functionality, double checks, integrated automatic binding restarting feature, I do not know, something that will improve stability. With the intention that something good will come out of this
This feels like a good place to put a cap on this conversation.
My sister is an excellent problem solver, but she’s also fond of saying that “sometimes you just want to vent.” The rationale is that she already knows what the solution is, and just wants to express her frustrations to someone who will understand and appreciate them. My job is to say, “I hear you,” and that makes her feel better.
And you know, she’s right. Sometimes I just want to vent. It’s surprisingly satisfying when someone acknowledges that it’s okay for you to be frustrated, and it makes you feel like you’re not alone. I’m sure that lots/all of us do this from time to time with our partners/family/friends/coworkers.
I feel like that’s what’s happening here (and in other similar OH discussions). Some folks want to vent. Others are here to solve problems. Sometimes, the venters attack OH and/or its developers, which causes others to rise up in defense (and I will be one of those defenders). Sometimes, the readers perceive a venter as attacking OH, even when that wasn’t the venter’s intention or language. That’s why I made my earlier appeal for us to always be civil and friendly…even when we’re frustrated by others’ posts. It’s far easier to find common ground if we engage positively, openly, and without judgment.
The flip side is that venters have to understand and appreciate that this community is full of problem-solvers. So if you vent in this space, there is a very high probability that you will not get a satisfying response.
I think we should be open to people venting in this space, so long as they do not attack people or OH in an insulting and/or unfair way. After all, no one understands the possibilities and pitfalls of OH better than this community. For those of us who are more interested in solving problems, let’s just say “I hear you” and move on to helping people who are asking for it. In doing so, we’ll create a more welcoming community for everyone, we’ll spend more time helping people who want help, and we’ll have more fun.
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I doubt it will have the effect that you seem to be hoping for. There are a lot of people that give up their time for free to make Openhab what it is, and when you are invested in a work of love it is easy to see your comments as an attack on their hard work and hence you will get the reactions you are getting. Nothing positive can come from whining, but as mentioned if you work towards getting help and moving forward I am sure it will then move forwards.
They are working hard at doing that and if you are new you came along at a bad time as a major change has been going on since the start of the year. Once the snapshots are stable, then a new milestone will be released. If you don’t like things changing and needing to fault find I would never recommend the snapshot which changes daily reflecting the work that is being done.
I have to laugh at this as the very thing you hated with the MQTT binding breaking (was a mistake to auto upgrade peoples v1 to v2 but the solution is easy if you are willing to talk about it) happens so many more times as often in Home Assistant. They loose people to Openhab because of this and they find it less stable. We loose people the other way as well.
I agree with you regarding this area and I have suggested splitting the Core and the bindings to make this clearer to new comers to the project. In my opinion the core should have a marketplace that allows upgrading the bindings easily without changing the core version and to access snapshot versions of bindings should be a tick box to allow them to be shown.
That will always be the case with an Opensource project that is fighting against the wind. Brands changing their APIs, close thing down and firmware updates break things. Until manufacturer hug each other and work together to make things easy it will stay that way. I doubt they will hug each other anytime soon
I am glad that you love Openhab, it could easily be missed that is the case and since you have coding experience I hope you stick with it and become someone that does contribute.
Then stop using what is causing the unstablity until it is resolved. Why suffer with unstability on all devices if it is caused by only 5% of your devices. Remove the 5% and then have a better working system for the remaining 95%.
Correct, but in this case it can have a damaging effect the opposite of what the OP is hoping to achieve because people that contribute take things personally and stop working on Openhab if people don’t apricate the work they do for free. This is why people step up to defend and the thread goes downhill fast.
@dakipro I would hate to see anyone that can code leave Openhab that includes you and the people that have written the bindings you have mentioned, so please stop whinging as it will not have the effect that you are hoping for and can only have the reverse effect.
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